Why is there so much liberal hate?

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The thing is bizboy wasn't stating any original ideas. He was making moral judgements, that no person should be obligated to be their brother's keeper under the threat of force. That is something you can either agree or disagree as there is no factual or logical content to dissect. He does not put up a logical argument for how his ideal society would actually work, or how it would lead to rising benefits for society as a whole. If he had there would be an actual argument for Vigilans to respond to. The thing is there wasn't. If someone is going to make stand-alone absolutist moral/ideological claims I think they can be called out for moral hypocrisy as to their own life situation. I don't think life situation is MORALLY irrelevant when it comes to someone's ideas. It really isn't fair for someone with a sheltered life to complain about being obligated to contribute tax money that might go to help someone less fortunate (for which he tosses in the inflammatory word "lazy"). At that point it isn't about arguing a position at all. It's simply bizboy giving his subjective opinion in an offensive manner without appealing to anything concrete or factual to argue over.

Of course. Too few of us semi-serious non-ideological types in here to take things personally.



Honestly, I just was skimming PPR as I'd been taking a bit of a WP break, and just caught the last few pages of the the thread; I can't tell you why certain types of argument catch my attention (they literally jump out at me), but that one did. I don't think it was a matter of clarity but more a matter of strange wiring in my head, a sensitivity to rhetoric that I can't really explain. Anyway, enough about it.

@ Dox: the sense of moral superiorty also occurs in a lot of conservatives (you are a rare exception, Dox): those like bizboy who think that anyone who disagrees with him is a lazy freeloader, or those like the religious conservatives who think that anyone who disagrees with them is a tool of satan.

Why even post if you can't get the facts straight. Basic economics tells us that welfare causes people to be "lazy". I repeat, if I give person A a welfare check of $400/month why would he work for a job that pays $400/month or slightly more? He wouldn't. It's in his best interest to stay on welfare because the incentives are not there. Now for people who have utility curves that are more geared towards "success" then that wouldn't be the case. Some people are fine living off $400 month. Now I don't know the specifics of any particular income redistribution program but the underlying economics is all the same.

That's what the court system is for. Take them to court. Firms have an incentive to have safety standards. Sometimes there is a conflict of interest due to profits and bad business. (yes, businesses can make mistakes). A libertarian answer would be to create a market where individuals have numerous choices. A big selling point would to compare your product's superiority to the other. I'm sure this wasn't the case for what you are talking about. Consumers back then had little choice and information. When a firm pollutes or causes harm to an individual, you take them to court and they pay for the offense. If a product kills you, they should be sued or shut down by some lawful force.

bizboy there are plenty of examples where a working welfare system heps keep unemployment low, even in times of recession.

the danish unemployment fared far better than the american and we have a much more substantial welfare system including universal healthcare and university.

Yes because technically, under the definition, they are employed or aren't included. They may get welfare and work part time so this looks like a benefit.

and how would you know that?

or are you just making assumption again?

what do you even mean employed or unincluded? in exact words.

most people i know either study, which isnt included in unemployment or work.

i know a few who are on welfare, one because of a work accident and two others who have had trouble finding jobs due to a lack of experience, a catch 22.

especialy when our GDP per capita is higher than the us.

Look how they construct the statistics. That's all I'm saying.

Your population is a lot different than ours and a lot smaller. Can't compare.

Also what statistics are you looking at to make that claim? I just did a quick check and we have a higher GDP/capita than you.

And how long will it take for you to see your day in court? Big business' lawyers can drag their feet for years to keep it from going before a jury. And what if the judge is prejudiced in favor of the defendant due to class loyalties? And trust me, that had happened quite a lot before government regulation saved people. In the meantime, you could have medical bills piling up, or you or a loved one might even be dying because of corporate evil, while you wait for a justice that seems to be dwindling further and further away in the distance.
Beside, I thought you conservatives were planning to make it harder to sue big corporations.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

A religious faith in the goodness and efficiency of business. At least christers have no evidence rather than contrary evidence.

thats not what the world bank says

us, GNI 48,450 usd

denmark, 60,390 usd

wolfram alpha corroborates that, where did you find your numbers??

Alright you're correct under nominal GDP per capita. Looking at PPP might be more useful and USA is higher in that regard.

You're mistaken.

But if you replaced business with state you would be correct.

You can blame government for slow procedure. That's why most businesses prefer private arbitration. And the rest of you're post is speculative or hypothetical.

You've got to be kidding.

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