How Would You Amend the Constitution of the United States?

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just_ben
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21 Jun 2010, 4:47 pm

Orwell wrote:

just_ben wrote:

Soldiers aren't that politically minded. They're gonna get awful bored without a war to fight, and do you seriously want to turn 10,000 bored marines on an unsuspecting public? It's all well and good spreading anti-war ideology, but ultimately, war is how it is. People fight wars because they're savages. We all are. What exactly stops you from slugging people in the face when they really offend you? Come on, Orwell. The vote for peace is all well and good, but you aren't doing soldiers any justice by denying them their 'work', so to speak.

This post is so idiotic I hardly even know where to begin.

1) Most soldiers do not want to spend their time fighting wars. They don't want to leave their families behind, perhaps never to see them again, or to live in harsh conditions in hostile territory where they could very well die a horrible death at any point. Very few soldiers are actually happy to ship out to fight a war, and those few who are thrilled to fight are the psychotic nutbags who should never be allowed near a gun or sharp objects.
2) Are you claiming we need to fight wars just to keep our soldiers occupied? The military still employs people during times of peace by maintaining a standing army, and besides that there is no reason why servicemen can't have a peacetime occupation to keep them from getting "bored" as you suggest they would.
3) War does not have to be how it is. Humans have gotten less warlike over our history, and if that trend continues then we can one day cease to fight.
4) You can speak for yourself. I am not a savage.

How do you account for volunteers? I don't know where you live, but it's not like there's conscription in the UK. If you've applied, and you're stupid enough not to think it's gonna be tough, well, you kind of had it coming. You can't be this naive, seriously. I stand by my 'self-glorified shaved chimps' idea (you don't need to point out the science btw, it's just a metaphor). If you can't stand the fact that you're an animal that can plan, then you've probably missed a pointer or two. Incidentally, I noticed you find it very easy to be aggressive in your arguments. My opinion's just as valid as yours, so you can drop that 'this is so idiotic' B.S. right now. My point really is that you seriously can not be as naive as this. Or maybe I'm just hopelessly bitter, cynical and therefore a good candidate for the military. :roll:

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ruveyn
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21 Jun 2010, 4:49 pm

Orwell wrote:

See visagrunt's comments about the distinction between legality and morality.

But yes, killing is wrong. Killing in self-defence, depending on the situation, might be justifiable because you are committing one wrong to prevent another (greater) wrong, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still wrong. Depending on whether you subscribe to consequentialist or deontological ethics, you may or may not support that trade-off.

Can you derive the wrongness of killing from the laws of physics? If not, then you are merely expressing an opinion, rather than stating a fact.

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21 Jun 2010, 5:50 pm

just_ben wrote:

Volunteers have several reasons for serving. They might have fallen victim to the "economic draft," which is still very strong here in the US. They might not have been fully aware of what was in store for them. (Actually, I would guess that very few realize the full extent of what they've signed up for until it's too late to back out)

Quote:

My opinion's just as valid as yours,

No it isn't. One idea must fit the available facts better than the other, and frankly your comments were just plain silly. You seemed to be implying that in the absence of a war, unemployed marines would go on some sort of crime spree.

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Dox47
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21 Jun 2010, 6:16 pm

Orwell wrote:

We were talking about people who were able to do so in a "calm, collected manner." You are correct; many soldiers suffer emotional distress because of what they have been forced to see and do, and that is a perfectly normal, healthy response to what they've endured. Those who are unaffected by killing another human being are psychopaths.

Ah ah, what's this about "remaining unaffected"? We were talking about the ability to perform a task, no one said anything about how the person in question feels afterwords. Most snipers and soldiers with similar duties will at the very least report nightmares and other mental trauma as a result of the way in which they kill, PTSD is very common in the special forces community. If I didn't know better, I'd say someone's trying to move the goalposts here... :wink:

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techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jun 2010, 6:17 pm

Orwell wrote:

just_ben wrote:

Do you think its maybe a similar scenario for police and firemen?

I know I'm from a good 200 miles up north of ya but I've always noticed that its a thing people do if they feel a sense of obligation for the freedoms and safety that they and their family enjoy. Even if they're not from a military family or don't have anyone close to them putting it up in their ear constantly enough guys hit a point - early on even - where they realize that the people who make the sacrifices for their safety are just as mortal and just as afraid as they are, which sparks their desire to do something themselves, perhaps believing that they're on the stronger side internally and would rather it be them than someone who's perhaps less built to handle it. Then again that's why I have a hard time looking at it as psychopathy, from here it looks like a heavy dose of altruism.

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21 Jun 2010, 6:21 pm

visagrunt wrote:

I disagree. Justifiability is a legal state, which is distinct from a moral or ethical state, and should not be used interchangably.

Justifications for homicide (such as self-defence) are exceptions to the general rule that homicide is malum in se. A person who kills in self-defence is not criminally liable for that action, but the concept of something being "inherently wrong," goes beyond the principle of legal liability into the territory of moral and ethical assessment. I suggest that it is incorrect to rely upon legal determinism to approach questions of morality and ethics.

Consider a person acquitted of murder because of the exclusion of evidence due to unreasonable search and seizure and a person acquitted of murder because of self defence. The two of them are in precisely the same legal position, and both are blameless at law. But clearly from an ethical and moral position, we view them differently. I suggest it is not because the person who acted in self-defence acted justifiably, but rather than the person's action was morally and ethically privileged--which is a different status.

All that being said, this is all a far cry from psychopathy.

My point was that viewing killing as morally relativistic is not at all uncommon, and by pointing out a very common point of law was reinforcing that a great majority of people use contextual ethics to determine the "rightness" of an action. I wasn't trying to imply that because something is legal than it must be just, but rather that enough people worldwide subscribe to a certain viewpoint that it has become a common point of law throughout much of the world.

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21 Jun 2010, 6:42 pm

Dox: it appears I misunderstood you. We have seemingly been talking about different things, and I did not mean to "shift the goalpost." If someone was able to completely put aside their emotions entirely to perform as a sniper, that would require incredible discipline, although it would probably just end up hurting them more in the long run (repressed emotions would come up later).

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

I know I'm from a good 200 miles up north of ya but I've always noticed that its a thing people do if they feel a sense of obligation for the freedoms and safety that they and their family enjoy. Even if they're not from a military family or don't have anyone close to them putting it up in their ear constantly enough guys hit a point - early on even - where they realize that the people who make the sacrifices for their safety are just as mortal and just as afraid as they are, which sparks their desire to do something themselves, perhaps believing that they're on the stronger side internally and would rather it be them than someone who's perhaps less built to handle it. Then again that's why I have a hard time looking at it as psychopathy, from here it looks like a heavy dose of altruism.

This is one of the myths that always annoys me. Our military (nowadays at least) does nothing to secure our civil liberties. I don't understand the supposed link you are trying to draw.

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techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jun 2010, 6:45 pm

Orwell wrote:

This is one of the myths that always annoys me. Our military (nowadays at least) does nothing to secure our civil liberties. I don't understand the supposed link you are trying to draw.

Human intent.

Also its probably good to bring up - since I really doubt that many of them have your shared values or outlook on the world, they're not the hypothetical evil-you going out there, they're simply not you at all.

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21 Jun 2010, 7:22 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

OK. I already acknowledged that people have different motives for joining the service. Some of them involve value systems that are not only foreign to me, but appear to be based on a completely delusional view of the world.

I mean, at this point your arguments are meaningless to the point where they apply just as easily to fanatical Jihadists as to US Marines. A suicide bomber is supremely moral and altruistic according to his values and outlook, but I daresay you and I would both disagree with such an assessment of his actions.

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DW_a_mom
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21 Jun 2010, 8:01 pm

I've been having this huge urge to be cheeky, and you all have been discussing such serious ideas that I felt I shouldn't interrupt, but I still have that urge .... so ... Answering the thread title:

I'd get rid of the right to bear arms

(um, joking. I think )

On the serious stuff:

I do not believe that killing is ever "right," but it may be "necessary." One has to be really, really careful looking at the concept of "necessary," however, because it may be too easy to stretch a self-centered concept into "necessary," and I believe that happens far too often. There need to be a lot of reality checks on the concept.

The existence of a military is necessary, and it does protect our freedom (the mere existence of a military), but it is questionable if any individual war or military action is necessary. War will always be sold as such, and it is the nature of a soldier's job not to question that. But, the rest of us can and should. World opinion is just one of many reality checks.

Sorry if I haven't been solidly eloquent. I've not been feeling well, and illness makes me punchy. Go easy on me, folks!

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techstepgenr8tion
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21 Jun 2010, 8:32 pm

Orwell wrote:

I mean, at this point your arguments are meaningless to the point where they apply just as easily to fanatical Jihadists as to US Marines. A suicide bomber is supremely moral and altruistic according to his values and outlook, but I daresay you and I would both disagree with such an assessment of his actions.

That's just the zone that the floating point we're discussing occupies. You stated rather firmly that its your belief that there is no noble reason to go into the military and that the service and defense of nation is a myth, the Marine/Jihadist moral equivalency exists based on those conditions.

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22 Jun 2010, 7:34 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

Orwell wrote:

That is a relative perspective only though. A reference to reality is needed to see which is actually better or worse, of which, at the very least I think, the Marine would be better.

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22 Jun 2010, 9:50 am

-Congress must not spend more money than it has (NO EXCEPTIONS)

-The budget MUST be balanced BEFORE a congressional recess

-No more lobbyists of ANY kind

-House/Senate limited to ONE term of FIVE years

-Traditional Marriage (one man one woman)

-Stop Political Correctness, being blunt is good

-Allow people to erect Ten Commandments statues on public property

-Disband the Department of Education and the NEA (teachers union)

-Ban abortion entirely (NO EXCEPTIONS WHATSOEVER)

-Healthcare is a RIGHT not a privilege

-Freedom OF speech, not freedom FROM speech (same goes for religion)-
(that last one comes from a personal experience, i work at a convenience store where each clerk has the choice of music to play in the store (as long as its not obscene), i play K-LOVE (Christian music) during my shift, i had a lady come in and tell me i should not be allowed to have it on that station, she finds it offensive.)

perhaps she wanted me to play music with lyrics suggesting violece against police officers, defecating on the flag, or doing the unmentionable to her daughter.

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skafather84
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22 Jun 2010, 11:56 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7FshBjkS6U[/youtube]

Legalize all drugs.

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iamnotaparakeet
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22 Jun 2010, 1:06 pm

skafather84 wrote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7FshBjkS6U[/youtube]

Legalize all drugs.

By doing that, the demand decreases. By prohibiting people from owning or using things, you increase their curiosity about them. But when the restriction is removed, it is no longer that interesting.

(BTW, I am not for drug-usage and am against cigarette usage and haven't done either myself. I have had alcohol, but I rather clean my glasses with it than drink it. However, people should have the freedom to reduce their lifespan or live high if they want to, but their fate is on their own heads.)

techstepgenr8tion
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22 Jun 2010, 3:20 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

That is a relative perspective only though. A reference to reality is needed to see which is actually better or worse, of which, at the very least I think, the Marine would be better.

By necessity it needs to be as flimsy as the belief in 72 virgins in heaven for blowing up the heathen.

I think Orwell's admitted that he doesn't think we're at the end of history, I'd like to think he understands that nations can rise and fall based on resources and wars that don't need to be fought by military agents of a nation state marching in ten by ten squares in uniform. The "We're all safe now thanks to nukes" idea that some here have put out (not Orwell but a few others) works only under the condition that you have a geographically defined enemy and even with that, the use of nuclear weapons by a country - at this point - is tantamount to social suicide if anything short of that will suffice. To believe that one is only fighting for one's liberty when in uniform on one's own land fighting an invading army, also in uniform, to be a history student and hold that view wouldn't compute whatsoever - so I don't think its that either. What his thoughts actually are on this I have no idea.

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