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Damn, first time i've noticed this thread, maybe it was the change in the changing of the name to deleted that prompted me to read it...

Finding the deleted post in a quote.. that sent a shiver up my spine so bad... it's like Kat15 was describing my own thoughts as a child. I won't get into much more of it, other than to say that I can truly empathize with you Kat15. I can't offer you advice, because you state you want to go in the direction opposite to what I went.

Am I happier that I did go the way I did? I can't know that answer. Nor will you be able to years from now when you look back and try to understand whatever decision you make. But I can tell you, that i might well be the most important decision you EVER make.

God can shove that concept right up his fundament then. There's no forgiveness in that. In the third Omen film, Sam Neil (the antichrist Damien) points out that he just killed a boatload of innocent children and God did NOTHING to stop him. Fictional it may be, but consider the biblical example that exists..Herod..who also slaughters a boatload of innocent children on the off-chance that one of them might be the Christ-child.. and God in his infinite wisdom allows it to happen, utterly uninterrupted. The Bible is liberally peppered with examples of God, in his wisdom and wonderful glowy forgiveness being an unutterable a***hole. Who needs a deity like that?

who ? you . and me . and the rest of the world .. God would really suck if he told you you were free and could do as you pleased ..gave you a set of rules then sent you down the street ..only to come upon you later and say OH HEY you cant do that and rip away the gift of freedom .. I think everyones heart bleeds over the things people do to people .. I also believe that Gods heart bleeds the same way . cheers !

Your concern is understandable. But the problem here is that you are assuming that you know a better way than God. You don't know the mind of God, hence you can't possibly understand how it is that God can work for the greater good through the evil actions of sinful people.

We also must take care not to assign blame to one of whom it is not owed. When a person commits a crime, we punish that person. If a young adult, fully aware of his actions and their consequences, commits a crime and is caught, he is brought before a judge, evidence is presented, (hopefully) a guilty verdict is reached, and he is punished. Blaming God for tacitly allowing the death of those children is the same as putting a mother on trial for giving birth to a murderer. Herod had to be responsible for his OWN actions. It is not the purpose of God to make Herod's decisions for him, ALTHOUGH Herod COULD have accepted the truth of the prophecy and simply let history play out. We know through reading the Bible that Jesus Himself posed no real threat to ruling authority. His most egregious crime was not even a real crime--the chief priests felt that their doctrinal authority was threatened and they overreacted rather than examine Christ's teachings in comparison with scripture. History would have played out somewhat differently, with Christ's teaching gaining acceptance with the religious leaders of the day and the Romans putting Him to death over a perceived economic threat in an already unstable occupied region (think how THEY must have felt after the temple purge).

The Bible shows that human beings have a tendency to place blame for the consequences of sinful behavior on anyone else but themselves. Adam blamed Eve, "the woman," he said, "who You gave me." So it's not JUST Eve's fault, it's God's fault for giving him the woman in the first place. Eve, of course, blames the serpent. First of all, the serpent didn't force Eve to commit sin. Second, the serpent is also God's creature. So placing the blame upon God's creation (external to the sinner, of course) is inherently blaming the Creator. Now, I don't honestly believe that Adam and Eve understood the implications of their response to God, but it does show how deep the roots of sin reach into the human psyche. The fall isn't just a simple matter of eating a piece of fruit or reading some secret, forbidden book of knowledge (morality), it is a COMPLETE and TOTAL fall, and anything we try to say about who's to blame when the person we blame is anyone but the person with whom the blame lies is complete, total, and utter nonsense.

Now, while it was NOT God's purpose to interfere with the schemes of man on the level of mass murder, it WAS God's plan (and more important) that the Christ child live to adulthood. It was only through divine intervention that Jesus' family was spared that horror. Further, the senseless killing of a relative few, dying in their innocence and escaping the trials of earthly existence, is justified if the end result is the provision of eternal life and freedom from sin for the rest of the world throughout whatever length of time God chooses to allow it to exist. But don't assume that it was under God's command that it happened. Herod made that decision, and that puts him on the same criminal level as a mass-murderer acting of his own volition. He could have just as easily done otherwise had his heart been in the right place.

Well said

That set of rules that says "Thou shalt not kill"? Very much a case of "Do as I say, not as I do." God and his followers are very good at thinking up ways around that one, and often as not failing to prevent it occuring, or even helping to set it up. In fact old testament God spent a small epoch saying "Don't do that, put that down, definitely don't look at that, and kill that lot whilst you're at it." So as recorded, he's nothing but a bully and a bit of a dick, and a reasonable facsimile of a dictator.

The "God works in mysterious ways" response. I imagine that could be followed by waving hands in the air and going "wooooo" to increase the feeling of mystery. To use corporeal law, God is an accessory to murder multiple times, as he could have prevented it, knew about it, but did nothing to stop it. If he was in the habit of communicating through burning bushes etc as recorded, then he was quite capable of intervening one way or another in any number of horrific acts. Sadly, "God working in mysterious ways" basically translates as "God will kill as many as he needs to get his own way." This effectively makes him no less bloodthirsty than most ancient deities of the period, and in many cases a lot MORE bloodthirsty. As for the "fall"...a whole species, every man woman and child from now until eternity taking the blame for the activities of one couple? Blaming a whole race for one event once has been used as an excuse for great evil for a long time. If a man invents a device which then cuts off his own hand who is to blame? If God deliberately introduces temptation into a paradise, who is to blame when someone gets tempted? All sounds a bit fickle to me. Like teasing on a cosmic scale. God fails on an EPIC level. Omni-fail even.

Perhaps you miss the point. If God is taken as the personification of all natural forces He cannot be accused of callously killing any more than a bolt of lightning or the persistent forces of evolution can be accused of killing without any feeling.They have no feelings like people and people are just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Superstitious people cannot conceive that nature exists without intent so they invented God to give it human form. But it still kills pretty randomly so they have a problem with their God's personality and grant it special privileges. Of course they are rather nuts to proceed this way but just look at the insane way people throughout the world act. How can you expect them to think sensibly about their invented God?

There are, I imagine, pantheons and deities who act in a much more consistent and reasonable manner. Its a shame that their followings have tailed off I suspect. At least everybody admitted that Thor was an itinerant thug, a drunk, and a bully. Honesty might be more pleasing than inscrutable mystery (an excuse as old as religion itself.) "Why did God allow the children to die?" "Because he's an arrogant and vengeful old bastard." Brutally honest, and much better for it.

this thread is a classic example of people who are desperate to showcase their intellectual and philosophical superiority.

surely the OP will not be soothed by all this jargon that has sprang up on the soft foundation of her original lament.
it reminds me of a mottled bunch of gnarly knuckled lip biters all seizing on the opportunity to vie for intellectual supremacy while dancing on the grave of a child who sowed the seeds for their egotistical displays of mentage.

yuck!

she has not reentered this thread, and none of you care. you just spit out your statements in a quest for dominance in theological and intellectual credibility.

people are so vain that they will spend hours thinking of a way to step on top of another persons idea no matter what it is, and whether or not the original poster will benefit.

she was genuinely scared, and now all she has is a jabbering mess of intellectuals fighting for supremacy hijacking her thread.

If she was genuine we tried to point out that she was scared of a perversely imagined boogeyman and she had nothing to be frightened about. That was not intellectual superiority it was a genuine attempt to let her see the truth and throw off childish nonsense.

Again, you're making the mistake that your knowledge and wisdom is superior to that of a wholly righteous God. "Thou shalt not kill" refers specifically to murder.

Referring to the conquest of Canaan, the inhabitants of the promised land were guilty of some truly horrible misdeeds, including: Idolatry, associated crimes with idolatry such as ritual/temple prostitution, bestiality, even child sacrifice were rampant in the region. The behavior of the Canaanites was disgusting enough. But they were the most guilty of disobedience to God.

When someone, anyone (even today) is caught and found guilty of a crime, it is the right and duty of culture and society to hold them accountable for their wrongdoing. In the contemporary time, our understanding of crime and punishment has extended to include appropriate punishment (length of incarceration, for instance) along with merciful corrective measures in hopes of allowing the criminal to return to society and function in some constructive way.

But what happens if a criminal remains defiant, shows no remorse, and persists in the behavior for which he is punished? Ought not the death penalty or at least life-sentencing be carried out in order to keep the criminal from being a threat? Is it possible that some criminals are past the point of reeducation? Do most people in society really want a criminal walking among them who not only poses a direct threat to those around him, but also may influence children and young adults to follow in the same behavior? Do you really want someone around your kids who may abuse them, show them porn, and teach them to molest their younger siblings or other neighborhood children?

And if it CAN be that the worst of criminals may be rehabilitated, what peace may the victim, the victim's family, or close friends of the victim have that someone can simply wait out a short sentence and return to normal life? What justice is there?

While it is true that criminals can and often walk free for any number of reasons, the plain fact is we have a system of justice in place so that we may do our best to see that those who do wrong get what they deserve and that victims of crimes have legal recourse and a chance for vindication. Further, our legal system is set up in such away that evidence must be provided and thoroughly examined in order to punish the alleged criminal, which (hopefully) punishes the right person. Not only that, but the appeals process helps prevent wrong or unfair sentences from being carried out.

Now, God DID carry out this kind of justice with the Canaanites. The Exodus was a LONG process (over 40 years). The Canaanites would have known the intention of the Israelites, upon which they could have begged God for mercy or evacuated the area in hopes of joining with the Israelites in peacetime. For all we really know, there may have been some who did this. But the Bible DOES tell us that the Canaanites present at the end of the Exodus were NOT repentant, did NOT appeal to God for mercy, and stood to wage war upon the Israelites. What they didn't understand was that they'd already declared war on God a long time before the Exodus even began. And since they'd already declared war, God raised up His army (the Israelites) to dispossess the Canaanites and wipe out any remaining remnant (God's promise was actually that He'd drive out the Canaanites before them personally, making the job of the God's people relatively easy).

So if the peoples of Canaan had already declared war on God, it should come as no surprise that death came as a result. Killing is ALWAYS justified in war, though our perspective of war has changed in recent times, and cannot qualify as murder. Accusing God of murder during a time of war is unjustified.

As if there need be proof that God's way is the best way, consider this: Apparently the Israelites felt they knew better than God. Rather than persisting in driving the Canaanites out of the region, they enslaved some of the more stubborn Canaanite tribes, which meant they had to accept their continued religious practices. It was in large part due to this risk that God ordered the Israelites to drive out or put to death ALL of the people of Canaan. And what happened? The enslaved former people of Canaan DID have a religious influence on the Israelites, and by the time of the Babylonian captivity they had largely abandoned genuine worship of Yahweh.

What happened? God allowed the Babylonians to virtually destroy Israel and Judah (as I recall, there really wasn't much left of Israel by that point, anyway).

The pattern gets perpetuated when people come to believe that they know a better way. And when criminal behavior proceeds to the point at which God sees that there IS no remediation, God MUST take action. It's not JUST about destroying those who declare war on Him, but also about making sure that those who DO trust God receive justice.

You think of God as a bully because (I'm guessing) you don't like the idea that anyone could be in control over your life other than yourself. But if God's wisdom is superior wisdom, why not follow it? If you want what's best for yourself, why not trust in the One who really DOES know all that is good for you?

You entire screed is predicated on the assumption that the God of Israel actually exists. An assumption for which there is not a single shred of empirical evidence. It is purely a belief and a wish with no factual substance.

ruveyn

I'm sorry, but to compare ANYTHING I've done in my lifetime to the genocidal machinations of Hitler, the mass murders of Charles Manson, or the violence of a serial rapist is just insanity. There is no justice in saying that I deserve nothing better than they do a priori and that I deserve less than they do if they embrace a certain belief and I don't. I may not be perfect, but how capable I am of believing without proof is a piss-poor criterion when compared with the fact that I am basically a good person.

~Kate

No. I just dislike any deity that promotes genocide, which is far worse a crime than idolatry, unless you're the arrogant S.O.B not being idolised I suppose. God has yet to prove any "superior" wisdom, at least for the Old Testament. I'm not overly adverse to some of the "be nice to one another" concepts of the New Testament, because those are sensible and sound precepts, not the temper tantrums of a mardy child demanding attention by annihilating cities and demanding sacrifices. Demanding my attention is likely to have the opposite effect because frankly its damn rude. Demanding my worship.. no hope. Gods come and go, they always have. This particular one is nothing special. Can't even successfully unify the three Abrahamic religions that all worship him into a cohesive and peaceful whole, and I have little time for any religion that causes quite so much death and destruction in the name of peace. At least worshippers of Kali, goddess of murder, made no bones about the fact that they were murderers who followed a killer. They didn't try to hide a sword behind an olive branch.

Macbeth, mardy is a great word. Adding it to my mental dictionary now. Thanks.