Page 6 of 8 [ 117 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8  Next

iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

23 May 2011, 1:01 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:


We took Von Braun because the Soviets were taking German scientists at an alarming pace. Also Von Braun designed the Saturn V rocket that got us to the moon.


We build them good in the Fatherland.

That Saturn V was useless for defense. Better the Atlas and Titan rockets.

ruveyn


And it would have probably been built earlier if there weren't insane idiots who hijacked v. Braun's expertise. The Saturn V was designed for travel to the moon, and if it weren't for maniacs trying to take over the world, mankind would have probably had bases on the moon and humans setting foot on Mars, at the least, by now. Instead, rockets were required to be turned into weapons for way too long before their use in spaceflight was realized.

Quote:
For most of the 1930s, therefore, rocket R&D was removed from the thought of war; it was von Braun fulfilling his childhood dream. The team moved to Peenemünde in 1935, and as late as 3 October 1942, after a successful launch of their baby the A-4 (53 miles elevation, 118 miles downrange), von Braun was still idealistic: “Do you realize what we accomplished today? Today the spaceship has been born!” and Dornberger chimed in innocently, “This 3 October 1943 [sic] is the first day of a new era of travel, the era of space travel!” Up till now, growing Nazi intrusions had been a nuisance and irritant to the decidedly non-political team, but the successful launch suddenly switched Hitler’s attention to it. He organized a committee of overseers; von Braun and Dornberger eluded some of the intrusions with claims that the work demanded absolute secrecy, but by the end of 1943, after the British had inflicted severe damage at the test center, Hitler ordered the production underground. This become the notorious Mittelwerk production center, in which A-4 rockets (renamed V-2s by the Nazis for “vengeance weapon #2”) were built by slave labor in a last-ditch effort to safe Germany from defeat. In February 1944, Himmler, who had visited the Peenemünde center the previous summer, tried to lure von Braun’s support; when it was rebuffed, the Gestapo arrested him in the middle of the night.

Von Braun was kept in jail two weeks without any explanation as to why he had been arrested. Finally, he was hauled into before a mock trial, where the accusation was, “he did not intend the A-4 to be a weapon of war, that he had only space travel in mind ... and that he regretted its military use” (Ordway, 32). He was also accused of spying and trying to escape. In the nick of time, Dornberger entered the courtroom with a document. When the official read it, von Braun was released. What happened? Dornberger had been working since the arrest to effect his release, and after many unsuccessful attempts, persuaded the head of the Gestapo that von Braun’s was “absolutely essential” to the success of the A-4 program. Also, Albert Speer had persuaded Hitler, who grudgingly agreed, that the “secret weapon” Germany had been boasting about publicly could not proceed without its premiere rocket scientist. For six months, until the assassination attempt on Hitler (when the von Braun affair was forgotten), von Braun was in a very precarious position.

He had two choices: refuse to cooperate and be shot, or steer the circumstances he was placed in for good, with what influence he had. Who could fault his decision? He had no authority, and no power other than advice, which he used to mitigate the evils around him. For instance, when he was made aware of the “hellish” circumstances under which prisoners were forced to build rockets in underground tunnels at Mittelwerk, he realized quickly that humane arguments with the morally-bankrupt SS leaders were futile. He persuaded them with shrewd pragmatic arguments that the project could not be completed on time unless the workers were fed and given rest. Similar shrewdness is found with Hushai’s counsel to Absalom in the Bible (II Samuel 16). Because of this, some of the suffering was alleviated. Yet von Braun had no authority over the project that the Nazis had wrested from his team’s hands; he was only asked his opinion on very specific problems, and was escorted under guard at all times. On September 8, 1944, V-2s were launched against Paris and London. Von Braun later described hearing the news as the darkest day of his life. To his chagrin, the rockets worked perfectly; they just hit the wrong planet.
Link: http://creationsafaris.com/wgcs_4.htm#vonbraun



Last edited by iamnotaparakeet on 23 May 2011, 1:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

23 May 2011, 1:17 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

And it would have probably been built earlier if there weren't insane idiots who hijacked v. Braun's expertise. The Saturn V was designed for travel to the moon, and if it weren't for maniacs trying to take over the world, mankind would have probably have bases on the moon and humans setting foot on Mars by now.



1. Mars is useless except maybe an operating base for mining the asteroids.

2. Von Braun was a ranking officer in the SS.

A former member of the Nazi party, commissioned Sturmbannführer of the paramilitary SS and decorated Nazi war hero, von Braun would later be regarded as the preeminent rocket engineer of the 20th century in his role with the United States civilian space agency NASA. In his 20s and early 30s, von Braun was the central figure in Germany's rocket development program, responsible for the design and realization of the deadly V-2 combat rocket during World War II.

Von Braun was completely aware that slave labor was used in his rocket projects. As I said a bastard Nazi thug.

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

23 May 2011, 1:24 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

And it would have probably been built earlier if there weren't insane idiots who hijacked v. Braun's expertise. The Saturn V was designed for travel to the moon, and if it weren't for maniacs trying to take over the world, mankind would have probably have bases on the moon and humans setting foot on Mars by now.



1. Mars is useless except maybe an operating base for mining the asteroids.

2. Von Braun was a ranking officer in the SS.

A former member of the Nazi party, commissioned Sturmbannführer of the paramilitary SS and decorated Nazi war hero, von Braun would later be regarded as the preeminent rocket engineer of the 20th century in his role with the United States civilian space agency NASA. In his 20s and early 30s, von Braun was the central figure in Germany's rocket development program, responsible for the design and realization of the deadly V-2 combat rocket during World War II.

Von Braun was completely aware that slave labor was used in his rocket projects. As I said a bastard Nazi thug.

ruveyn


Oscar Schindler was also a Nazi and used slave labor in his factories, but to say that would not be to say the entire story would it? Factoids by themselves can be used too well to color opinion pieces, but the actual situation and how people react to it within their limited choices available to them is often quite different than what would be painted by journalists.



psychohist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,623
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

23 May 2011, 1:45 pm

MDD123 wrote:
Are you saying that DARPA (a government entity) didn't establish the original internet?

DARPA established the Arpanet, which was designed for use by defense programs. There were other competing networks. Because a lot of universities happened to be on the Arpanet already due to defense contracts, it was eventually expanded into the internet, but if it hadn't existed, some other network would have taken its place.



dionysian
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 May 2011
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 921
Location: Germantown, MD

23 May 2011, 6:06 pm

MDD123 wrote:
dionysian wrote:
simon_says wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Having said that, I point out it is not a proper function of government to steal money from people to pursue it.


Fortunately your opinion is the minority. Else we wouldn't have the Hubble Space Telescope and all the rest.

And if such ideology was extended to other pursuits, none of us would be able to complain about the government on the internet... (You know, because it wouldn't exist.)


Are you saying that DARPA (a government entity) didn't establish the original internet?

No, that was my point. It's hilarious to me that people will get on the internet and complain about the government spending money on science and technology.


_________________
"All valuation rests on an irrational bias."
-George Santayana

ALL ANIMALS ARE EQUAL
BUT SOME ANIMALS ARE MORE EQUAL THAN OTHERS


simon_says
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,075

23 May 2011, 11:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

And it would have probably been built earlier if there weren't insane idiots who hijacked v. Braun's expertise. The Saturn V was designed for travel to the moon, and if it weren't for maniacs trying to take over the world, mankind would have probably have bases on the moon and humans setting foot on Mars by now.



1. Mars is useless except maybe an operating base for mining the asteroids.

2. Von Braun was a ranking officer in the SS.

A former member of the Nazi party, commissioned Sturmbannführer of the paramilitary SS and decorated Nazi war hero, von Braun would later be regarded as the preeminent rocket engineer of the 20th century in his role with the United States civilian space agency NASA. In his 20s and early 30s, von Braun was the central figure in Germany's rocket development program, responsible for the design and realization of the deadly V-2 combat rocket during World War II.

Von Braun was completely aware that slave labor was used in his rocket projects. As I said a bastard Nazi thug.

ruveyn


Von Braun also got himself arrested for pointing out that the war was a waste of time. He was not sympathetic to the Nazis, he just wanted to go to Mars.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

24 May 2011, 12:13 am

simon_says wrote:

Von Braun also got himself arrested for pointing out that the war was a waste of time. He was not sympathetic to the Nazis, he just wanted to go to Mars.


I aim for the stars so what is so bad about a little slave labor.

ruveyn



Last edited by ruveyn on 24 May 2011, 12:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

simon_says
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,075

24 May 2011, 12:27 am

A lot of bad things happened in WWII to procure victory. On both sides.

But Von Braun had very little power in the scheme of things. Hitler wrote that he would be spared only so long as he was indispensable.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

24 May 2011, 12:29 am

simon_says wrote:
A lot of bad things happened in WWII to procure victory. On both sides.

But Von Braun had very little power in the scheme of things. Hitler wrote that he would be spared only so long as he was indispensable.


Apparently American leaders said the same thing. They kept the Nazi around as long as he was useful.

ruveyn



simon_says
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jan 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,075

24 May 2011, 12:34 am

He certainly wasn't going to be tried for speaking ill of the government or a war.

When his views of space exploration were no longer a primary US policy, he was given a quiet desk in DC and left to rot / retire.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

24 May 2011, 10:29 am

iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

24 May 2011, 12:08 pm

Sand wrote:


That is rather cool. Using atmospheric oxygen to burn fuel until a given altitude is reached and then switching to onboard supplies of oxygen. A real space-plane, rather than the Shuttle which requires boosters.



Vigilans
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,181
Location: Montreal

24 May 2011, 12:34 pm

Reminds me of this Indian 'Avatar' RLV


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

24 May 2011, 12:56 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:


That is rather cool. Using atmospheric oxygen to burn fuel until a given altitude is reached and then switching to onboard supplies of oxygen. A real space-plane, rather than the Shuttle which requires boosters.


What is the free board lifting capacity of this vehicle?

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 31 Jul 2007
Age: 39
Gender: Male
Posts: 25,091
Location: 0.5 Galactic radius

24 May 2011, 1:08 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:


That is rather cool. Using atmospheric oxygen to burn fuel until a given altitude is reached and then switching to onboard supplies of oxygen. A real space-plane, rather than the Shuttle which requires boosters.


What is the free board lifting capacity of this vehicle?

ruveyn


Cargo capacity? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_E ... ayload_bay

Quote:
Payload bay

The payload bay of the Skylon C2 design is a cylinder 12.3 metres (40.4 ft) long and 4.6 metres (15 ft) in diameter.[10] It is designed to be comparable with current payload dimensions, and yet able to support the containerization of payloads that Reaction Engines hopes for in the future.[10] To an equatorial orbit, Skylon could deliver 12 tonnes (26,455 lb) to a 300 kilometres (186 mi) height or 10.5 tonnes (23,149 lb) to a 460 kilometres (286 mi) altitude.[10] It could also launch 9.5 tonnes (20,944 lb) to the orbit of the International Space Station, when launching from the equator.[10] Using interchangeable payload containers, Skylon could be fitted to carry satellites or fluid cargo into orbit, or, in a specialised habitation module, up to 30 astronauts in a single launch.[18][19]



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

24 May 2011, 1:29 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Sand wrote:


That is rather cool. Using atmospheric oxygen to burn fuel until a given altitude is reached and then switching to onboard supplies of oxygen. A real space-plane, rather than the Shuttle which requires boosters.


What is the free board lifting capacity of this vehicle?

ruveyn


Cargo capacity? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reaction_E ... ayload_bay

Quote:
Payload bay

The payload bay of the Skylon C2 design is a cylinder 12.3 metres (40.4 ft) long and 4.6 metres (15 ft) in diameter.[10] It is designed to be comparable with current payload dimensions, and yet able to support the containerization of payloads that Reaction Engines hopes for in the future.[10] To an equatorial orbit, Skylon could deliver 12 tonnes (26,455 lb) to a 300 kilometres (186 mi) height or 10.5 tonnes (23,149 lb) to a 460 kilometres (286 mi) altitude.[10] It could also launch 9.5 tonnes (20,944 lb) to the orbit of the International Space Station, when launching from the equator.[10] Using interchangeable payload containers, Skylon could be fitted to carry satellites or fluid cargo into orbit, or, in a specialised habitation module, up to 30 astronauts in a single launch.[18][19]


Pitiful. The Apollo had a payload capcity of Fully fueled it had a total mass of 6.5 million pounds (3,000 metric tons) and a payload capacity of 260,000 pounds (120,000 kg) to LEO. (From the Wiki article).

ruveyn