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Robert Zubrin: the importance of space for mankind.

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ruveyn
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11 Jan 2012, 9:08 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

In The Case For Mars, the length of time of which an atmosphere we can produce on Mars would be able to last would be about 100 million years. For human purposes, it needn't last even a few thousand really.


A few thousand or tens of thousands is as much as could be reasonably hoped for. Our Sun is not as friendly as you might think.

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iamnotaparakeet
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11 Jan 2012, 12:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

In The Case For Mars, the length of time of which an atmosphere we can produce on Mars would be able to last would be about 100 million years. For human purposes, it needn't last even a few thousand really.


A few thousand or tens of thousands is as much as could be reasonably hoped for. Our Sun is not as friendly as you might think.

ruveyn


A few thousand or tens of thousands of years is great. By then the necessary subsurface infrastructure could be long since built to house civilization like a massive space colony. We'll have probably expanded and filled up the rest of the solar system and probably be at least a goodly way towards expanding and filling the nearby star systems by then, if not beyond that already. If so much time exists, then so much more can be done.



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11 Jan 2012, 12:58 pm

If Mars has a lot of uranium in its core just light it up and the magnetic field of Mars will be rejuvenated.



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11 Jan 2012, 1:06 pm

how would only "simply light up a large ball of fissionable material"

one if it was any considerable size gravity itself would initiate the reaction, probably would have millions of years ago when mars was hot,
two if it isnt a considerable size then whats the point,
three if it is big enough itwould have to be diffuse enough not to crush so again i ask the question how would one easily ignite anything there is a chance of on mars,

we can mine it for fuel sure but even setting off an unhindered reaction is extremely difficult under those circumstances


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11 Jan 2012, 1:12 pm

I have done renders for Dr. Zubrin and Dr. Chris McKay depicting various Mars scenarios and terraforming.

In my semi-knowledgeable opinion, humans will never colonize Mars. China will colonize the Moon, we might rent some space from them.

The situation in the Mid-East is going to become so overwhelming for the USA, that we ain't going anywhere...



ruveyn
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11 Jan 2012, 1:17 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

A few thousand or tens of thousands of years is great. By then the necessary subsurface infrastructure could be long since built to house civilization like a massive space colony. We'll have probably expanded and filled up the rest of the solar system and probably be at least a goodly way towards expanding and filling the nearby star systems by then, if not beyond that already. If so much time exists, then so much more can be done.


We are not going to make it out of the Solar System. The Stars (even Proximi Centauri) are too far away.

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11 Jan 2012, 1:21 pm

I can't wait 10,000 years, I have ADD.



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11 Jan 2012, 2:10 pm

Oodain wrote:
how would only "simply light up a large ball of fissionable material"

one if it was any considerable size gravity itself would initiate the reaction, probably would have millions of years ago when mars was hot,
two if it isnt a considerable size then whats the point,
three if it is big enough itwould have to be diffuse enough not to crush so again i ask the question how would one easily ignite anything there is a chance of on mars,

we can mine it for fuel sure but even setting off an unhindered reaction is extremely difficult under those circumstances


I'm assuming the response is to androbot? Notice the trend of facetious suggestions and marketing language he uses - I don't think he's serious whatsoever. In my opinion, he's best to ignore until he gives up his game of mocking those who actually care about spaceflight.



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11 Jan 2012, 2:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

A few thousand or tens of thousands of years is great. By then the necessary subsurface infrastructure could be long since built to house civilization like a massive space colony. We'll have probably expanded and filled up the rest of the solar system and probably be at least a goodly way towards expanding and filling the nearby star systems by then, if not beyond that already. If so much time exists, then so much more can be done.


We are not going to make it out of the Solar System. The Stars (even Proximi Centauri) are too far away.

ruveyn


Yes we will, but they shouldn't be our goals for now. Mars, the Earth's moon, and the planetoids around the gas giants should be first priorities.



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11 Jan 2012, 2:24 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Yes we will, but they shouldn't be our goals for now. Mars, the Earth's moon, and the planetoids around the gas giants should be first priorities.


How? We will never make vehicles that can exceed c/10. And to get even near the speed of light becomes impossible from an energy p.o.v. Relativistic mass increases beyond bound as one approaches light speed. How to we accelerate to such a speed with a massive vehicle? The only way to make Long Trips is to increase our life spans by several orders of magnitude or find a way to preserve ourselves for very Long Trips. Neither sounds likely. Generations ships are a pipe dream. Humans can not exist in tin cans generation after generation.

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11 Jan 2012, 2:28 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Humans can not exist in tin cans generation after generation.

ruveyn


How would you know this? And I don't mean literal tin cans, but generation ships which are designed to sustain a growing population for the decades or centuries of travel? How would it really be so much different than living in a crowded city for one's entire life, except with the ability to see the stars at will?



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11 Jan 2012, 2:30 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Humans can not exist in tin cans generation after generation.

ruveyn


How would you know this? And I don't mean literal tin cans, but generation ships which are designed to sustain a growing population for the decades or centuries of travel? How would it really be so much different than living in a crowded city for one's entire life, except with the ability to see the stars at will?



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11 Jan 2012, 2:33 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Humans can not exist in tin cans generation after generation.

ruveyn


How would you know this? And I don't mean literal tin cans, but generation ships which are designed to sustain a growing population for the decades or centuries of travel? How would it really be so much different than living in a crowded city for one's entire life, except with the ability to see the stars at will?


Aboard the MIR space station (while it flew) crew members almost came to blows against each other, and these people flew in sight of the ground.

The closest thing to Tin Can World is the submarine. Our navy does not have missions in excess of six months because crew efficiency falls off past that time.

Look at what happens to people in prisons. They riot, they kill or they go into a depressed anhedonic state after being cooped up.

There is much empirical evidence that shows humans are not suited to live in shut up environments for years at a time.

Forget about going to The Stars. It ain't going to happen.

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11 Jan 2012, 2:41 pm

It's yet to be seen, but my goal is not to go to the stars anyway, but to Mars.



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11 Jan 2012, 2:53 pm

it all boils down to scale,

the longer it takes the bigger the ship, double so because of comfort factors,

unless there is a true breaktrough either in our living age, propulsion, energy storage or all of them


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11 Jan 2012, 3:00 pm

Oodain wrote:
it all boils down to scale,

the longer it takes the bigger the ship, double so because of comfort factors,

unless there is a true breakthrough either in our living age, propulsion, energy storage or all of them


Yeah, essentially. But prior to doing that, we can build up a civilization throughout the solar system and have even more material and intellectual resources available to go yet further later on.