Personhood and Abortion

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androbot2084
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15 Mar 2012, 5:58 pm

The abortion problem will be solved when children are hatched rather than born.

androbot2084
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15 Mar 2012, 6:27 pm

I just think that all woman should have the right to choose not to give birth to children.

OliveOilMom
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15 Mar 2012, 6:46 pm

DoneOver wrote:

Oodain wrote:

Bataar wrote:

It doesn't directly affect my life anymore than the Columbine shooting effected it. It indirectly affects my life by showing an extreme disregard to human life in general which I could easily see having a negative impact on my life later on.

being against abortion shows a reckless disregard of rights as well, just not those of the fetus.(i debate when they receive what rights in this example they have been granted only for comunication purposes)

then comes all the suffering after birth that will ensue if they dont have caring parents to provide for them.

Do all people in favour of abortion ignore adoption?

Also, what rights are being violated when insisting abortion doesn't happen? People don't have a special right to kill someone just because they are located inside of them.

Yes, you do have a right to kill someone who is inside you if that is the only way to remove them from your body. I don't believe it's moral, but I do believe it's a legal right.

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androbot2084
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15 Mar 2012, 6:49 pm

Child birth is so barbaric.

Vexcalibur
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15 Mar 2012, 10:59 pm

A triumph for the American Taliban:
http://www.texasobserver.org/cover-stor ... ot-to-know

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donnie_darko
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16 Mar 2012, 1:31 am

Isn't aborting a child of rape sort of a form of honor killing? I'm especially referring to people who are otherwise against abortion but hypocritically think in the case of rape it's somehow okay. It's not so much akin to honor killing for people who are just in favor of abortion in general since they literally think life begins at birth.

LKL
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16 Mar 2012, 3:55 am

Killing an actual child of rape, especially an older one, might be somewhat akin to an honor killing; aborting a zef from rape not so much. I don't know how many times we have to say it, but a zef =/= a child.
edit: and preventing a person from ever existing =/= murder.

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16 Mar 2012, 7:29 am

I think a good part of the reason people get all worked up about abortion and how it is "wrong" is because they simply don't fully understand what is being aborted. The thing isn't a human, not in any recognizable way. It’s a clump of human tissue at best.

Is it murder to scratch your nose? In doing so you're killing human cells!! !

You remove larger chunks of human cells in many medical procedures, biopsies, removing tonsils or appendixes, cutting out necroses or cancers or amputations etc. That's not even to mention the religious reasons that cause us to self mutilate, ie tattooing, scarring, chemical ingestion or circumcision! Murder it is then eh? All of it, murder by the millions!

These things that are aborted are not aware, conscious, they do not think, they are not fully or even mostly formed. They are clumps of human cells. The best classification for these things is parasites. They are not able to survive on their own, and feed of their hosts.

An abortion is just the purging of a parasite from the hosts body...

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ruveyn
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16 Mar 2012, 7:34 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:

A late term aborted fetus looks just like a baby with the umbilical still attached.

ruveyn

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16 Mar 2012, 8:03 am

ruveyn wrote:

A late term aborted fetus looks just like a baby with the umbilical still attached.

ruveyn

If it looks just like a baby then it would be viable, because it would be a baby...so you wouldn't abort it, just, deliver early.

But I wasn't really referring to late term abortions anyway. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

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Oodain
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16 Mar 2012, 11:17 am

DoneOver wrote:

NarcissusSavage wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

A late term aborted fetus looks just like a baby with the umbilical still attached.

ruveyn

You only specified abortion. This is a post-facto rationalization.

and if we had to write down every single qualifier (this one was rather obvious),
it would quite literally be impossible to communicate.

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16 Mar 2012, 2:38 pm

DoneOver wrote:

LKL wrote:

Well you didn't prevent them from existing because they're inside your body.
And what is a zef?

The zef exists, but it's not a person until it has enough of a brain to host a personality.
zef = zygote/embyro/fetus; refers to the POC at all stages of gestation more politely than 'POC' and more accurately than 'baby.'
('POC,' btw, is the medical term 'product of conception.' It's what we label the result of a spontaneous abortion with when we send it to the pathologist to see why it aborted itself/was rejected by the mother's body).

LKL
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16 Mar 2012, 2:40 pm

NarcissusSavage wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

A late term aborted fetus looks just like a baby with the umbilical still attached.

ruveyn

Unless it has conditions inconsistent with life outside of its human life-support system, in which case you would still abort unless you were cruel enough to want it to suffer for as long as possible.

TheHouseholdCat
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16 Mar 2012, 2:46 pm

androbot2084 wrote:

I just think that all woman should have the right to choose not to give birth to children.

That's my opinion on the issue as well. If you think about it logically, it just makes sense. It's difficult to get your head around it, but I think making abortion seem so evil can do real damage to many women because if they DO abort a child, they're seen as evil baby killers. Well, it's easy to blame women for that. A lot of men think they know more about abortion and whether it should be done or not than the actual woman who has to make the decision.

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16 Mar 2012, 3:51 pm

DoneOver wrote:

A personality is an extremely vague concept on which to decide whether a human being should be killed legally or not. By that extension we could say anyone who is comatose can be killed because they lack a personality. Do you kill the deaf, dumb and blind on that basis too?

No, because those people have personalities.

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16 Mar 2012, 4:26 pm

NarcissusSavage wrote:

On average, most women do not know they are pregnant until around the 8th week. By that time, the baby has developed well past a "clump of human tissue". Biologically, it is definitely a human. It has unique DNA, has its own unique brain waves, is alive and is human in species.

Quote:

Is it murder to scratch your nose? In doing so you're killing human cells!! !

A human cell does not equal a human life. None of those cells, if left naturally to develop will ever continue to develop along the human life cycle.

Quote:

You remove larger chunks of human cells in many medical procedures, biopsies, removing tonsils or appendixes, cutting out necroses or cancers or amputations etc. That's not even to mention the religious reasons that cause us to self mutilate, ie tattooing, scarring, chemical ingestion or circumcision! Murder it is then eh? All of it, murder by the millions!

These things that are aborted are not aware, conscious, they do not think, they are not fully or even mostly formed. They are clumps of human cells. The best classification for these things is parasites. They are not able to survive on their own, and feed of their hosts.

An abortion is just the purging of a parasite from the hosts body...

None of those things are individual human lives either.

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