What is proof of God?

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shrox
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07 May 2012, 4:29 pm

Rocky wrote:

Such a machine would only show the pre-death dreams of the person experiencing death. Once their brain stopped working, the dreams would end.

What would be more interesting would be if the dreams in that situation showed a different religion's afterlife than their own. Or if two people died at the same time and the machines showed that they both experienced the exact same thing, assuming the visions were not overly vague and typical. This would require two machines running at the same time.

I have laid it out pretty clearly about how the fictional machine works, and most of the responses have been to challenge the premise of the machine in this hypothetical thought experiment, rather than answer the question I posed...

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07 May 2012, 4:41 pm

First I would question whether or not it is a dream or a real experience. Not sure what I would think if it was proven a real experience, maybe look at a bunch of different ones to see what level of consistency there is between multiple experiences.

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Rocky
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07 May 2012, 6:36 pm

shrox wrote:

What if a death experience like this was recorded? What if several experiences like this could be recorded, showing it repeatable? Would that be "proof of God"?

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFQrd2Y9R04[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTYRH3xpt44&feature=related[/youtube]

I have anticipated some answers and responses, such as "maybe it's just a common death experience, or the last vestiges of consciousness slipping away". Whether such a recording was (A) truly a conciseness leaving the body to be with God, or (B) merely the process of a shut down of consciousness, you would still have to make a choice. Whether it is A or B (or I just don't care...).

No real proof of God can ever be provided, other that God himself appearing before all. That is coming, but until then, belief of the "reality of God" is a choice. Once proof is shown, then only acceptance or denial are possible.

What would you make of such a recording? It would be proof of something, but what?

Here in the OP you ask several questions:
1 "Would that be "proof of God"?" Not to me. The machine shows what goes on in their mind, not necessarily reality.

2" What would you make of such a recording?" That it shows what goes on in their mind before they die.

3 "It would be proof of something, but what?" That a machine can record what goes on in someone's mind before they die.

I enjoy Douglas Trumbull's films. I was very impressed with "Tree of Life." I just don't believe speculations about reality without sufficient proof.

ruveyn
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08 May 2012, 3:53 am

shrox wrote:

What if a death experience like this was recorded? What if several experiences like this could be recorded, showing it repeatable? Would that be "proof of God"?

Since when is a delusion and an hallucination a proof of anything?

Proof requires either a rigorous logical demonstration or the presentation of a fact beyond any reasonable doubt.

ruveyn

kla2
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08 May 2012, 8:17 am

ruveyn wrote:

shrox wrote:

Proof requires either a rigorous logical demonstration or the presentation of a fact beyond any reasonable doubt.
ruveyn

The mistake you make is to presume that any demonstration of fact must meet 'your' conception of logic. Discovery is very often a path that defies all existing logic, creating it's own new terms, at the same time offering demonstrable proof. Any one unable to empathize with the new discovery is just unwilling to 'raise' their intellectual game, accept correction, test it for themselves and learn something new. Such a mind prefers ignorance and prejudice to knowledge and truth. That same winnowing process is now unfolding with the God question. A repeatable 'rigorous demonstration' of newly discovered Fact is available to anyone with the faith to test it for themselves. With apologizes to Shakespeare: To test or not to test, that is the question?

piroflip
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08 May 2012, 8:41 am

shrox wrote:

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Belief in god is based on brainwashing (of the young), superstition, and money.

DC
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08 May 2012, 9:45 am

shrox wrote:

I'll play.

Nope, not even close to proof of God.

Lets say you manage to make a similar machine, the Shrox2000.

The Shrox2000 is a remarkable machine, if you put a christian in the machine and kill them they instantly come back to life aged 20 and immortal, they speak every language that has ever been spoken or ever will be spoken and have complete knowledge of the universe. They all report an experience of 'heaven' as is commonly interpreted by christians.

If you put a muslim, or hindu or athiest or buddhist etc etc in the machine they come back immortal reporting an experience of a place suitably nasty that you could only classify it as the christian 'hell'.

Now you put millions of people through the Shrox2000 machine in properly controlled, double blind trials and it always comes back as 100% perfect, only christians go to heaven and everyone else goes to hell.

Even if you could do this I would not accept it as proof of god.

I would concede that you appear to have discovered a new 'reality' that is consistent with an 'afterlife'. I would say there is very strong evidence to suggest that some sort of mechanism or interview process exists to seperate christians fron non christians.

I would not accept that any of this therefore means that every bit of christian dogma over the last 2000 years is automatically now proved correct and I would not say that any of this is proof of god.

shrox
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08 May 2012, 11:40 am

Finally! Some real answers..

I would not say that such an experience recording is proof of god. Certainly it would be proof of something interesting, especially if there was great clarity to the "death" experiences recorded.

ruveyn
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08 May 2012, 12:23 pm

There are two proofs for the existence of God. One is inadequate and the other is non-existent.

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08 May 2012, 12:56 pm

shrox wrote:

Something interesting indeed, death is something that our species as a whole as long been ignorant of and afraid of. Such a machine might be the first step in changing that.

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08 May 2012, 1:46 pm

shrox wrote:

Still playing the hypothetical thought experiments, atheist to christian:

I probably set quite a high bar even as an atheist for my requirements and definition of 'proof', for example I don't believe that seeing is believing because I know that what you think you see isn't 'really real'.

Your eye turns photons into electrical impulses that travel back along the brain and then have to be translated by at least two groups of neurons before they reach the bit of your brain that you would consider as being 'you'.

When you take hallucinogenic drugs these translators get screwed up, when you watch a magician perform magic tricks with sleight of hand he is 'hacking' the translator bits of your brain, instead of your brain reporting to you what your eye is actually seeing, it reports what it thinks should be happening.

With this level of scepticism, do you think that even if god exists, do you think he could ever prove to me that he actually is god, the creator of the universe, omnipotent, omnipresent etc?

If we assume that god refuses to take away my free will, what trick do you think he should perform for me to prove his existence and that isn't just an alien with some tech toys that appear to be magic because the human race is so technologically backward by comparison?

shrox
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08 May 2012, 2:15 pm

DC wrote:

shrox wrote:

I think you've read this wrong. I am asking what would you make of the recording if such a machine existed.

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08 May 2012, 6:28 pm

Funny thing about NDE: Buddhists see Buddha . Muslims Alha or Mohammed. Christians see Jesus.

Almost as if a brain getting roasted was not the most reliable source of memories.

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08 May 2012, 8:49 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

Funny thing about NDE: Buddhists see Buddha . Muslims Alha or Mohammed. Christians see Jesus.

Almost as if a brain getting roasted was not the most reliable source of memories.

If AWARE or other studies clinch the validity of OOB, things learned on the other side of the tunnel however - I think we'll need to look at the possibility that what we're dealing with is simply beyond the complexity of anything we've dealt with before, the degree of it being both imaginary and real at the same time may be very accurate (to which we may have a very difficult time getting through to what it is behind the 'dream'), and any proper mechanical understanding of it won't be served to us prechewed or blended in a baby bottle.

It does though, in many senses, seem like the people who see hell are no better or worse than the people who see heaven (theists, atheists, all really have both) but its typically a fear of death or final judgment - a bit like their internal optimisms or fears have a lot to do with creating the world they end up in.

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09 May 2012, 7:13 pm

ruveyn wrote:

shrox wrote:

What if a death experience like this was recorded? What if several experiences like this could be recorded, showing it repeatable? Would that be "proof of God"?

Since when is a delusion and an hallucination a proof of anything?

Proof requires either a rigorous logical demonstration or the presentation of a fact beyond any reasonable doubt.

ruveyn

well said.

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09 May 2012, 7:23 pm

kla2 wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

shrox wrote:

Proof requires either a rigorous logical demonstration or the presentation of a fact beyond any reasonable doubt.
ruveyn

ROFLMFAO!! !

You utilize many words that you clearly do not understand. Faith rhetoric with words like intellectual, proof and logic sprinkled on top to disguise the same old message.

FAIL!

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