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Who was 666?

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Kraichgauer
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19 Sep 2012, 5:29 pm

With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



AngelRho
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19 Sep 2012, 6:51 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.



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19 Sep 2012, 6:53 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.


Now you're just being silly.



ArrantPariah
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19 Sep 2012, 7:54 pm

Not just silly, but un-American and anti-Christian.

"Oh, no! We can't have health care reform! That is a sign of the Beast, and the End Times. And, we have to keep the Jews to guard the Temple Mount, until Jesus comes back and wipes out everyone who isn't Christian!"

For Heaven's Sake, just let us have our Obamacare and our Social Security! The Bible says absolutely NOTHING against them!



Kraichgauer
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19 Sep 2012, 8:19 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.


From the perspective of mainline denominations like my own, the thousand years is in the here and now, and Christ's kingdom is the invisible church (all true believers united in the worship of Christ, regardless of denomination), as well as the inner kingdom within the hearts of all believers. But for the record, if evangelicals want to believe in the rapture and some future millennial rule of Christ, that's fine with me - as long as they don't start stocking up fire arms to fight the battle of Armageddon (like the Branch Davidians). Crazy people and guns just don't mix.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



AngelRho
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19 Sep 2012, 8:48 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.


Now you're just being silly.


Hello, Pot! I'm Kettle! You're BLACK!! !



AngelRho
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19 Sep 2012, 8:52 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.


From the perspective of mainline denominations like my own, the thousand years is in the here and now, and Christ's kingdom is the invisible church (all true believers united in the worship of Christ, regardless of denomination), as well as the inner kingdom within the hearts of all believers. But for the record, if evangelicals want to believe in the rapture and some future millennial rule of Christ, that's fine with me - as long as they don't start stocking up fire arms to fight the battle of Armageddon (like the Branch Davidians). Crazy people and guns just don't mix.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

My understanding is that the Battle of Megiddo is a final battle between the Messiah and Satan along with his followers. Jesus alone fights for us.



ArrantPariah
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19 Sep 2012, 9:08 pm

AngelRho wrote:
My understanding is that the Battle of Megiddo is a final battle between the Messiah and Satan along with his followers. Jesus alone fights for us.


Nope. That's just a place where kings were going to be brought together. No battle, Just a big storm, earthquakes, plagues and whatnot.



Kraichgauer
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19 Sep 2012, 11:13 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.


From the perspective of mainline denominations like my own, the thousand years is in the here and now, and Christ's kingdom is the invisible church (all true believers united in the worship of Christ, regardless of denomination), as well as the inner kingdom within the hearts of all believers. But for the record, if evangelicals want to believe in the rapture and some future millennial rule of Christ, that's fine with me - as long as they don't start stocking up fire arms to fight the battle of Armageddon (like the Branch Davidians). Crazy people and guns just don't mix.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

My understanding is that the Battle of Megiddo is a final battle between the Messiah and Satan along with his followers. Jesus alone fights for us.


Well, you can explain to David Koresh he was wrong on that. See if his ghost has enough heart left to laugh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



AngelRho
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20 Sep 2012, 9:24 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.


From the perspective of mainline denominations like my own, the thousand years is in the here and now, and Christ's kingdom is the invisible church (all true believers united in the worship of Christ, regardless of denomination), as well as the inner kingdom within the hearts of all believers. But for the record, if evangelicals want to believe in the rapture and some future millennial rule of Christ, that's fine with me - as long as they don't start stocking up fire arms to fight the battle of Armageddon (like the Branch Davidians). Crazy people and guns just don't mix.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

My understanding is that the Battle of Megiddo is a final battle between the Messiah and Satan along with his followers. Jesus alone fights for us.


Well, you can explain to David Koresh he was wrong on that. See if his ghost has enough heart left to laugh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Sure, but calling Koresh and his followers Christian is applying the term loosely. That cult was a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off of Millerite teaching. I admire adventists for keeping a proper Sabbath, but I'm disturbed by the strong potential for legalism within their religious practice, not to mention the shameful line of false prophets from Miller on. Koresh was a false prophet, and the truly sad thing about ol' Vern was that he was set up to be a false prophet.

I gotta hand it to the guy, though... Here you have a guy who, without so much as lifting a finger, can outsmart his enemies, have them kill each other off or get them committed to a mental institution, take over a cult, and have sex with whoever he wants--and I mean WHOEVER, he can have sex with 14-year-olds and have their parents consent to it--and all he has to do is claim to be Jesus (or King David, or Cyrus, or whoever). Not bad for a sicko.

If someone makes a prediction about the coming final battle and the prophet/messiah/whatever leads his disciples to stockpile weapons, it's time to find a different church.



Kraichgauer
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20 Sep 2012, 2:44 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
With the exception of the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement, most of Revelations has already taken place, back in the 1st century.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost. So, yes, we are living in the "last days." But in the millennial kingdom? Nope.

Also, I think the resemblance of the prophecy fulfillment in the 1st century paints a picture of what the actual fulfillment will be LIKE. If you take Christian belief regarding fulfillment of OT scripture in the person of Christ (when the prophecies were already fulfilled elsewhere), it has been commonly held that there a dual fulfillment had taken place. But as it stands, I do not see how that many prophecies were even fulfilled ONCE.

I've joked about Obama being the anti-Christ, but I think the rise of Antichrist would strongly resemble his rise to power--a media personality cult, rushing unpopular legislation, etc. But is he really the Antichrist? I doubt it.


From the perspective of mainline denominations like my own, the thousand years is in the here and now, and Christ's kingdom is the invisible church (all true believers united in the worship of Christ, regardless of denomination), as well as the inner kingdom within the hearts of all believers. But for the record, if evangelicals want to believe in the rapture and some future millennial rule of Christ, that's fine with me - as long as they don't start stocking up fire arms to fight the battle of Armageddon (like the Branch Davidians). Crazy people and guns just don't mix.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

My understanding is that the Battle of Megiddo is a final battle between the Messiah and Satan along with his followers. Jesus alone fights for us.


Well, you can explain to David Koresh he was wrong on that. See if his ghost has enough heart left to laugh.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer

Sure, but calling Koresh and his followers Christian is applying the term loosely. That cult was a spin-off of a spin-off of a spin-off of Millerite teaching. I admire adventists for keeping a proper Sabbath, but I'm disturbed by the strong potential for legalism within their religious practice, not to mention the shameful line of false prophets from Miller on. Koresh was a false prophet, and the truly sad thing about ol' Vern was that he was set up to be a false prophet.

I gotta hand it to the guy, though... Here you have a guy who, without so much as lifting a finger, can outsmart his enemies, have them kill each other off or get them committed to a mental institution, take over a cult, and have sex with whoever he wants--and I mean WHOEVER, he can have sex with 14-year-olds and have their parents consent to it--and all he has to do is claim to be Jesus (or King David, or Cyrus, or whoever). Not bad for a sicko.

If someone makes a prediction about the coming final battle and the prophet/messiah/whatever leads his disciples to stockpile weapons, it's time to find a different church.


Granted.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ArrantPariah
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21 Sep 2012, 8:27 am

Ronald Reagan claimed to be a big believer in this nonsense, and also stockpiled weapons.



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21 Sep 2012, 10:01 am

AngelRho wrote:
Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost.

I have to disagree with you there Angel. Pentecost was the beginning of the age, Antichrist will not come until it is ending.

Mathew wrote:
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat.24:6-8 NIV

The wars and rumors of war we have always had; only now are we seeing earthquakes in various places. Last year we had an earthquake here on the east cost that everyone, lead by the media, was talking about. It was so minor I didn't even feel it, just the fact that it happened was newsworthy. This year we are getting tornados for the first time.

Things are starting to happen, but I still say it is only the beginning.


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ArrantPariah
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21 Sep 2012, 10:06 am

Don't forget the big eruption at Krakatoa.

Also: Pompeii.



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21 Sep 2012, 10:22 am

All of this gloom and doom is based in subjective interpretations of a series of essays and myths that were written nearly 2000 years ago by people who seemed to hallucinate quite often, and who provided no evidence to support their claims other than "I Believe".

Christianity: "Believe, or your loving and benevolent god will send you to a place of eternal torment."

Islam: "Believe ... or DIE!! !"

Judaism: "Believe ... or not ... let us contemplate the Torah and daven ... chalachalachachalachalachachalachalacha ..."

Hinduism: "No matter what you believe, you will return."

Buddhism: "Belief is illusion. Doubt is illusion. There is only the here and the now, and we are all One with the Buddha-nature."

Atheism: "You Believe WHAT?! ! :lmao: Oh ... that's a good one! :lol: "



AngelRho
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21 Sep 2012, 11:40 am

NobelCynic wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Well, I'd say that the "end times" mentioned by Jesus in the gospels began at Pentecost.

I have to disagree with you there Angel. Pentecost was the beginning of the age, Antichrist will not come until it is ending.

Mathew wrote:
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains.
Mat.24:6-8 NIV

The wars and rumors of war we have always had; only now are we seeing earthquakes in various places. Last year we had an earthquake here on the east cost that everyone, lead by the media, was talking about. It was so minor I didn't even feel it, just the fact that it happened was newsworthy. This year we are getting tornados for the first time.

Things are starting to happen, but I still say it is only the beginning.

I think of the "last days" as being the long period of time beginning at Pentecost and ending with the rapture and subsequent tribulation period. We aren't really in disagreement...I just didn't choose the best wording.

There are always cycles of disasters, so I think we have to be careful about declaring what the "beginning of birth pains" really means. By far Chernobyl and the Japanese tsunami have been the most impressive disasters that have happened in my lifetime--not so much the extent of the disasters themselves, but the human folly involved. I knew at once when statements coming out of Japan indicated that everything was under control, something UGLY was about to happen. Sure enough, within a day or two reactors were blowing their lids. I also consider what is happening around the world in religion and politics, and I think perhaps natural disasters are the least of our worries.

I wonder if WW3 hasn't already started and we've just been in denial for a few decades.