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MarketAndChurch
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29 Oct 2012, 12:19 am

Dox47 wrote:
Cornflake wrote:
But no matter - you'll just carry on weaving and ducking anyway as Mitty boy's (what is that short for? - "Mitthew"?) unpaid shill...


'Yasha was actually quite hostile to Mittens, right up until he became the official GOP candidate. He's not unlike the anti-war left who turn a blind eye to Obama's foreign adventurism and not-so-secret assassination program, in his reality avoidance in furtherance of partisanship. I really don't understand it myself, but then I don't understand most cultish things.


It goes both ways, and I know you acknowledge that, but it is embarrassing to see them justify things they would not under a Republican president. Walter Russell Mead summarizes it best in this article: http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/ ... s-it-mean/

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If the president were a conservative Republican rather than a liberal Democrat, I have little doubt that much of the legacy press would be focused more on what is wrong with America. There would be more negative reporting about the economy, more criticism of policy failures and many more withering comparisons between promise and performance. The contrast between a rising stock market and poor jobs performance that the press now doesn’t think of blaming on President Obama would be reported as demonstrating a systemic bias in favor of the rich and the powerful if George W. Bush were in the White House. The catastrophic decline in African-American net worth during the last four years would, if we had a Republican president, be presented in the press as illustrating the racial indifference or even the racism of the administration. As it is, it is just an unfortunate reality, not worth much publicity and telling us nothing about the intentions or competence of the people in charge.

The current state of the Middle East would be reported as illustrating the complete collapse of American foreign policy—if Bush were in the White House. The criticism of drone strikes and Guantanamo that is now mostly confined to the far left would be mainstream conventional wisdom, and the current unrest in the Middle East would be depicted as a response to American militarism. The in and out surge in Afghanistan would be mercilessly exposed as a strategic flop, reflecting the naive incompetence of an inexperienced president out of his depth. The SEALS rather than the White House would be getting the credit for the death of Osama bin Laden, and there would be more questions about whether killing him and then bragging endlessly and tastelessly about it was a contributing factor to the current unrest. Political cartoons of Cheney spiking the football would be everywhere. It’s also likely we would have heard much more about how killing Osama was strategically unimportant as he had become an increasingly symbolic figure and there would have been a lot of detailed and focused analysis of how the foolish concentration on bin Laden led the clueless Bush administration to neglect the rise of new and potentially much more dangerous Islamist groups in places like Mali. The Libyan war would be widely denounced as an unconstitutional act of neocon militarism, with much more attention paid to the civilian casualties during the war, the chaos that followed, and the destabilizing effects on the neighborhood. The White House fumbling around the Benghazi murders would be treated like a major scandal and dominate the news for at least a couple of weeks.

If Bush were in the White House, the Middle East would be a horrible disaster, and it would all be America’s fault.



What if the commerce clause is used by a Republican to advance an agenda that you don't agree with? They justify health care as being a rare exception, but they still have a huge expansive agenda which they will argue as also being critical exceptions, needing immediate action. You have to govern as if the opposition can also use the same leeways you do to justify a devastating agenda.


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29 Oct 2012, 1:15 am

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I'm a firm believer in giving people with odious views all the microphone cable that they want, with which to hang themselves.




ArrantPariah
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29 Oct 2012, 7:40 am

Inuyasha wrote:
I actually can make a list of reasons as to why I'm voting for Romney over Obama.


Oh, I can, too.

Here is my complete list:

1. Because Fox News told you to.



Inuyasha
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29 Oct 2012, 12:58 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
I actually can make a list of reasons as to why I'm voting for Romney over Obama.


Oh, I can, too.

Here is my complete list:

1. Because Fox News told you to.


:roll:

I'll give 3 reasons off the top of my head.

1. Fast & Furious
2. The auto "bailouts" which were really designed to reward Obama's union backers and violating Bankruptcy law by stealing from retired teachers in the state of Indiana and other retirees. My grandfather used to be a teacher, he's dead but my grandmother is still alive and she saw a lot of the savings she and her husband had disappear overnight courtesy of Obama.
3. Obamacare


That's just three reasons, and there are plenty more where that came from.

Oh back to the original topic, looks like people on the left are starting to be called out on this smearfest.



ruveyn
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29 Oct 2012, 1:39 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
I actually can make a list of reasons as to why I'm voting for Romney over Obama.


Oh, I can, too.

Here is my complete list:

1. Because Fox News told you to.


:roll:

I'll give 3 reasons off the top of my head.

1. Fast & Furious
2. The auto "bailouts" which were really designed to reward Obama's union backers and violating Bankruptcy law by stealing from retired teachers in the state of Indiana and other retirees. My grandfather used to be a teacher, he's dead but my grandmother is still alive and she saw a lot of the savings she and her husband had disappear overnight courtesy of Obama.
3. Obamacare


That's just three reasons, and there are plenty more where that came from.

Oh back to the original topic, looks like people on the left are starting to be called out on this smearfest.


He also signed into law a bill that would permit many to be imprisoned and denied the privilege of habeas corpus.

ruveyn



Inuyasha
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29 Oct 2012, 1:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
I actually can make a list of reasons as to why I'm voting for Romney over Obama.


Oh, I can, too.

Here is my complete list:

1. Because Fox News told you to.


:roll:

I'll give 3 reasons off the top of my head.

1. Fast & Furious
2. The auto "bailouts" which were really designed to reward Obama's union backers and violating Bankruptcy law by stealing from retired teachers in the state of Indiana and other retirees. My grandfather used to be a teacher, he's dead but my grandmother is still alive and she saw a lot of the savings she and her husband had disappear overnight courtesy of Obama.
3. Obamacare


That's just three reasons, and there are plenty more where that came from.

Oh back to the original topic, looks like people on the left are starting to be called out on this smearfest.


He also signed into law a bill that would permit many to be imprisoned and denied the privilege of habeas corpus.

ruveyn


That would have been number 4 on my list ruveyn, but I said I was only giving three reasons.



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29 Oct 2012, 2:03 pm

What bothers me is the separation of church in state. I do not have a problem with politicians passing laws which they feel are morally right but when politicians start divining the will of God then they should decide whether they want to be a politician or a preacher.



Inuyasha
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29 Oct 2012, 2:20 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
What bothers me is the separation of church in state. I do not have a problem with politicians passing laws which they feel are morally right but when politicians start divining the will of God then they should decide whether they want to be a politician or a preacher.


When it comes to abortion there is also a secular argument for it being illegal is well as a religious one. If the child in the womb is a human being, then by definition it's government's job to protect said life from others trying to kill such life. There is more to this than a simple religious argument, a very good secular argument can be made as well.



ArrantPariah
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29 Oct 2012, 4:29 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
That's just three reasons, and there are plenty more where that came from.

Yes, and they all came from Fox News. You can list all of the talking points you wish. It all cums down to "because Fox News told you to."

Inuyasha wrote:
Oh back to the original topic, looks like people on the left are starting to be called out on this smearfest.

That's not the original topic.



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29 Oct 2012, 4:33 pm

I actually think that Inuyasha is pretty smart. I agree with many things he has said about gender issues in the past. At the same time, I find it unfortunate that his devotion to Fox News holds him back.


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visagrunt
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29 Oct 2012, 4:35 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
When it comes to abortion there is also a secular argument for it being illegal is well as a religious one. If the child in the womb is a human being, then by definition it's government's job to protect said life from others trying to kill such life. There is more to this than a simple religious argument, a very good secular argument can be made as well.


Nonsense.

Government authorizes the killing of individuals in all manner of circumstances. Soldiers, peace officers, prison officers, physicians and people acting in self-defence are all examples of people who are--in certain circumstances--legally authorized to cause the death of another human being.

The obligation of government to act to protect law is nowhere enshrined in law. Government has used the principle of protecting the health and safety of individuals as justification for any number of legislative and regulatory initiatives, but it is not a prescriptive standard that dictates the activities of government at all times.


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29 Oct 2012, 4:42 pm

visagrunt wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
When it comes to abortion there is also a secular argument for it being illegal is well as a religious one. If the child in the womb is a human being, then by definition it's government's job to protect said life from others trying to kill such life. There is more to this than a simple religious argument, a very good secular argument can be made as well.


Nonsense.

Government authorizes the killing of individuals in all manner of circumstances. Soldiers, peace officers, prison officers, physicians and people acting in self-defence are all examples of people who are--in certain circumstances--legally authorized to cause the death of another human being.

The obligation of government to act to protect law is nowhere enshrined in law. Government has used the principle of protecting the health and safety of individuals as justification for any number of legislative and regulatory initiatives, but it is not a prescriptive standard that dictates the activities of government at all times.




Um, in my country, it actually is. There is a precedent that officers of the law are obliged to prevent crime whenever possible and will lose their jobs if they do not take action to protect innocent lives that are in danger. Legislation exists that require government agents to protect and enforce the law.



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29 Oct 2012, 4:46 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
I hope that people can realize that most GOP politicians are not like Akin or Mourdock. And they have to remind themselves they Romney is the presidential candidate, not Akin or Mourdock.


The problem is that there are numerous people in the Republican party who are like these guys. Romney, regardless of what his own views really are, spent the entire primary season pandering to them when he needed their votes, and its anyone's guess how much weight he'll give their opinions if and when he becomes president.

But even more than that, (even) if you believe that these guys represent a minority of the Republican party, then what we have is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Everything that happens in their party, from their convention to the way 90% of their congressmen and senators vote, comes from this "minority". Even the Republican party platform adopted at their convention this year favors a complete ban on abortion, with no exception for rape victims or mothers whose lives are endangered by their pregnancies.



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29 Oct 2012, 4:49 pm

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
Tim_Tex wrote:
I hope that people can realize that most GOP politicians are not like Akin or Mourdock. And they have to remind themselves they Romney is the presidential candidate, not Akin or Mourdock.


The problem is that there are numerous people in the Republican party who are like these guys. Romney, regardless of what his own views really are, spent the entire primary season pandering to them when he needed their votes, and its anyone's guess how much weight he'll give their opinions if and when he becomes president.

But even more than that, (even) if you believe that these guys represent a minority of the Republican party, then what we have is a case of the tail wagging the dog. Everything that happens in their party, from their convention to the way 90% of their congressmen and senators vote, comes from this "minority". Even the Republican party platform adopted at their convention this year favors a complete ban on abortion, with no exception for rape victims or mothers whose lives are endangered by their pregnancies.


To add on to this, they do pull all the strings. Remember that gay guy that Romney appointed a few months ago? Yeah, the religious nut jobs in the party pressured the hell out of Romney to fire him, and he did. Bryan Fischer even said that Romney must bend to the socially conservative group of Republicans.



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29 Oct 2012, 5:23 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Um, in my country, it actually is. There is a precedent that officers of the law are obliged to prevent crime whenever possible and will lose their jobs if they do not take action to protect innocent lives that are in danger. Legislation exists that require government agents to protect and enforce the law.


But that's not the same thing at all.

Government agents must protect and enforce the law, yes. But within that obligation also comes the authorization--in some circumstances--to use lethal force.

Inuyasha has suggested that government must protect the life of one person from another trying to kill that person.

I've said that no such general obligation exists.

And nothing that you have said contradicts that. There are obligations that government has imposed on public servants, corporations and individuals with the express intention of protecting life. But nowhere is government--writ large--subject to such an obligation.


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29 Oct 2012, 5:39 pm

It's getting to the point where politicians are telling us that you will go to hell unless you vote Republican and they are finding more and more people who are stupid enough to believe them.