Page 6 of 13 [ 208 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 ... 13  Next

07 Nov 2012, 6:40 pm

Yes indeed all capitalism is cronyism just like other facets of life or the afterlife. It all depends on Who you know. Not so much on what you do. The sooner a person learns that lesson the better. Smart thinking.

androbot2084 wrote:
All capitalism is cronyism.



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

07 Nov 2012, 6:47 pm

Capitalism is based on greed which breeds cronyism. If you don't want cronyism then why be a capitalist? It's like the concept of the noble savage.



TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

07 Nov 2012, 7:08 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Capitalism is based on greed which breeds cronyism. If you don't want cronyism then why be a capitalist? It's like the concept of the noble savage.


The alternatives are worse, communism/socialism tends to breed the same cronyism, without the same efficiency (both time and resource-wise), tending to bring with it dictatorships, suppression of human rights, labor camps and mass executions.



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

07 Nov 2012, 7:15 pm

The only reason why we have communistic dictatorships, violation of human rights , labor camps, executions and starvation is because politicians are afraid of dismantling the system if it does not work.

As recorded in the book of Acts the first century Church practiced communism but it did not work because people started to freeload. Rather than allow people to starve the leaders enacted capitalistic reforms.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

07 Nov 2012, 7:52 pm

TM wrote:

So in your world it's cool for a guy to indicate that he's going to throw a fire extinguisher at your head, but not cool to prevent him from possibly killing you. Note that the as*hole was in the middle of a morally superior mob using violence, wielding chains and crowbars etc. Come at any sensible person with a crowbar and if they have a gun they'll put a bullet in your skull.


Picking up fire extinguisher =/= shooting point blank range in head with pistol

can you say disproportionate force?

In this case the cops lost any facade of responsible policing when they deliberately ran over his body as can be seen in the video.

thomas81 wrote:

If you threatened me with bashing my skull in with a fire extinguisher amongst a mob of angry people wielding chains and crowbars, I'd be inclined to do the same.


Then I really hope for the sake of your fellow citizens you aren't a police officer and never become one.



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

07 Nov 2012, 7:54 pm

TM wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
Capitalism is based on greed which breeds cronyism. If you don't want cronyism then why be a capitalist? It's like the concept of the noble savage.


The alternatives are worse, communism/socialism tends to breed the same cronyism, without the same efficiency (both time and resource-wise), tending to bring with it dictatorships, suppression of human rights, labor camps and mass executions.


It is a false dichotomy. Other alternatives are possible. One that involves a resource based economic system coupled with an automated production mode that antiquates diminutive social roles and the class antagonism associated with them.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9ps5vJrIxMhttp://[/youtube]


www.eoslife.eu



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

07 Nov 2012, 8:04 pm

Another Buckminster Fuller?



thomas81
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2012
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,147
Location: County Down, Northern Ireland

07 Nov 2012, 8:09 pm

The North American Technate are students of the theorist Howard Scott.

There is a European equivalent called the Earth Organisation for Sustainability. It is led by a scientist called Dr Wallace who happens to be a personal acquaintance of mine.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

07 Nov 2012, 10:05 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Capitalism is based on greed which breeds cronyism. If you don't want cronyism then why be a capitalist? It's like the concept of the noble savage.


Capitalism is based on the private ownership of the means of production. As long as there are laws to punish fraud and to enforce contracts capitalism is no more greed based than government tyranny (which is what we have at the moment).

Everything you use at home or almost everything was manufactured by a private firm, distributed to you by a private firm. etc. etc.

The government did not provide it.

Most people in government could not run a lemonade stand at a profit.

ruveyn



marshall
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Apr 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 10,752
Location: Turkey

07 Nov 2012, 11:57 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Most libertarians do not encourage people to set up their own communes or cities based on communism. It seems to me that most libertarians encourage people to strike it rich under capitalism and libertarians believe that your chances of success are greater if government gets out of the way. This may be because libertarians believe people are inherently selfish.

However communism does not work because wealth is confiscated by force and this results in a totalitarian system. Now with libertarian values property rights are respected and the wealthy would have to voluntarily give up all of their wealth in order to form a working communistic society.

So my question is why do not more libertarians promote the idea of volunteering for communism? It may be the secret formula for bringing heaven on earth. A lot of people I meet are not satisfied with personal success but really want a community. If the experiment does not work you can always go back to capitalism but no one ever tries.


Small groups of humans naturally operate communally. I can only imagine how hard the human race would fail if normal day-to-day interaction operated in a parallel fashion to how large businesses and multinational corporations interact with each other. What if every single thing you did had to be motivated by purely self-interested bargaining. When you see a small elderly person having trouble opening a heavy door the first thing that goes through your mind is how much you think she will pay you for the service of opening the door for her.

I think the issue is when you have groups of people larger than 100 or so, systems for dividing labor become so complex that the normal social intuition and empathy fail. If you really think about it for most of human history large groups of people generally have very little empathy or concern for the well being of other large groups of people. In fact they tended to fight over resources and kill each other. But the problem is humans need to cooperate or there will never be peace. The ideal of the left politically is to expand the circle of empathy to all of humanity. The ideal of right-wing ideologies is to assert the morality of "in group" preservation and impersonal hierarchical power structures to keep order.



RushKing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,340
Location: Minnesota, United States

08 Nov 2012, 12:45 am

If capitalists stopped pointing guns we wouldn't have private property. So when right winged libertarians preach about how nonviolent their ideology is, remember private property is a result of coercion. The state was created to coerce people into wage slavery, and protect the elite. There is a reason why they initially only allowed the landlords to vote.



AspieOtaku
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 17 Feb 2012
Age: 42
Gender: Male
Posts: 13,051
Location: San Jose

08 Nov 2012, 1:02 am

I would say were probably already there.


_________________
Your Aspie score is 193 of 200
Your neurotypical score is 40 of 200
You are very likely an aspie
No matter where I go I will always be a Gaijin even at home. Like Anime? https://kissanime.to/AnimeList


TM
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,122

09 Nov 2012, 11:00 am

thomas81 wrote:
TM wrote:

So in your world it's cool for a guy to indicate that he's going to throw a fire extinguisher at your head, but not cool to prevent him from possibly killing you. Note that the as*hole was in the middle of a morally superior mob using violence, wielding chains and crowbars etc. Come at any sensible person with a crowbar and if they have a gun they'll put a bullet in your skull.


Picking up fire extinguisher =/= shooting point blank range in head with pistol

can you say disproportionate force?

In this case the cops lost any facade of responsible policing when they deliberately ran over his body as can be seen in the video.


Picking up a fire extinguisher, acting as if one is going to throw that fire extinguisher at someone's head = giving them the right to defend themselves from having their head potentially crushed, or their car broken into so that the violent rioters could murder them with the chains, lead pipes and crowbars they were carrying. Driving over his corpse was a way for them to escape, and get a measure of revenge I'm sure after a man who egged on a crowd of rampaging wildmen.


thomas81 wrote:
TM wrote:


If you threatened me with bashing my skull in with a fire extinguisher amongst a mob of angry people wielding chains and crowbars, I'd be inclined to do the same.


Then I really hope for the sake of your fellow citizens you aren't a police officer and never become one.


Self defense, if you have a reason to believe that a person is going to enact violence to your being, then you have the right to respond in kind. I do find it funny that taking into consideration the moral pedestal the left puts itself on, it seems to be the side most inclined to throw bricks.



JNathanK
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,177

09 Nov 2012, 1:26 pm

I don't like over-using the term "fascism". The more proper term may be neo-liberalism or corporatism. There was a very interesting quote by Mussolini in which he referred to fascist ideology as corporatism though. When totalitarianism does come, i think there will be a dangerous liaison between large multi-national corporations and government that completely supersedes the democratic process and that it'll exploit the religious right and blind jingoism in some way.



Seabass
Pileated woodpecker
Pileated woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 1 Aug 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 199

10 Nov 2012, 2:17 pm

I think we could head to a fascist state if reLOVEution doesn't occur. Although I find your tie of Ron Paul and fascism a little ridiculous. Him and others like him are a reactionary force against the development of an authoritarian state.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

10 Nov 2012, 7:49 pm

Seabass wrote:
I think we could head to a fascist state if reLOVEution doesn't occur. Although I find your tie of Ron Paul and fascism a little ridiculous. Him and others like him are a reactionary force against the development of an authoritarian state.


Ron Paul is the antithesis of a fascist. He wants to get the government out of the business of regulating our lives in detail and charging us for the disservice.

This country has been quasi-fascist since the Woodrow Wilson administration.

ruveyn