William Tecumseh Sherman: Hero, or Villain?

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William Tecumseh Sherman was a
hero 44%  44%  [ 8 ]
villain 33%  33%  [ 6 ]
just show the results 22%  22%  [ 4 ]
Total votes : 18

bLueTaEl0nENiGMA
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16 Dec 2012, 8:26 pm

ruveyn wrote:
bLueTaEl0nENiGMA wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Yes,they do.It said"The President was a FRIEND of the war torn South".
And that the South would have been treated better if he had lived.


Abe Lincoln would have pardonned either an equal number of Southerners or a greater number of Southerners
than Andrew Johnson did, and before the presidential vetos happened, the sheer number of pardons had created
the swirl of controversy? tacitly the Presidential Reconstruction over 1865 and 1866 is very similar for both men but
Abe Lincoln's press releases and public addresses would have been on a more elevated plane? he did not want a
brutal peacetime occupation after the surrender of the great Southern armies. Lincoln would have been a two term
president like George Washinton. again, Veep Andrew Johnson could have run in 1868 and lost, or maybe if he tried
to be very very very polite he'd have gotten the mandate he was seeking in 1866 prior to his quixotic speaking tour.


In those days the two term "limit" was a custom and not mandated by law. Lincoln was a two term president.
He was in his second term for about a month and half when he was killed.

ruveyn


FDR was a very confident man with a BIG ego.
the only politician in tennessee at the time who
possibly was a more bombastic and stubborn
man to deal with than ole andrew johnson was
parson brownlow, who was then the next military
governor after johnson became a veep. we know
honest abe did not see himself as being a tyrant
and like with jefferson davis, suspending the writ
of habeas corpus was to be temporary, just as the
federal income tax was. andrew johnson saw a big
parade that summer as a goodly portion of the men
from the union armies demobilized. reconstruction
is a unique decade in our history. only a few of the
historians really study it to any degree or authority.



ArrantPariah
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16 Dec 2012, 8:32 pm

Raptor wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Face the truth AP,Lee was a gentleman.
Another hypothetical question;
You are playing chess with Sherman,you beat him.I bet he would kick the table with the chess board,burn you in the eye with that cigar.
Lee would bow,aclknowledge your mastery of the game and sip cognac with you.
Sherman would swill the cognac and throw the bottle into the fireplace.
And you never responded to the one question,who would you prefer to discuss the arts with, Sherman or Lee?If you HAD to.


Hmmmm......
He seems to have fallen silent in butthurt.
Check the moderator room. I bet he's tattling on us for telling the truth.
Or maybe just busy stringing Christmas lights on the bridge....
:D


:roll:

Can't a guy even go and eat dinner?


Goat potroast?


You Betcha!

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ArrantPariah
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16 Dec 2012, 8:37 pm

Misslizard wrote:
it sure seems weird that AP would take up for any republican


In those days, the Republicans were the Good Guys. Now, the Solid South has switched from voting solidly Democrat to solidly Republican. And, the Democrats are now the Good Guys.



ruveyn
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16 Dec 2012, 8:41 pm

bLueTaEl0nENiGMA wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
Yes,they do.It said"The President was a FRIEND of the war torn South".
And that the South would have been treated better if he had lived.


Abe Lincoln would have pardonned either an equal number of Southerners or a greater number of Southerners
than Andrew Johnson did, and before the presidential vetos happened, the sheer number of pardons had created
the swirl of controversy? tacitly the Presidential Reconstruction over 1865 and 1866 is very similar for both men but
Abe Lincoln's press releases and public addresses would have been on a more elevated plane? he did not want a
brutal peacetime occupation after the surrender of the great Southern armies. Lincoln would have been a two term
president like George Washinton. again, Veep Andrew Johnson could have run in 1868 and lost, or maybe if he tried
to be very very very polite he'd have gotten the mandate he was seeking in 1866 prior to his quixotic speaking tour.


Lincoln's main impulse was to restore the Union and not to punish. He was planning to make re-entry to the Union as quick and as simple as possible for those States which had seceded. In fact, his doctrine was they had never left but were taken over by criminal action. As soon as the people who pushed for secession he resworn allegiance to the Union all would be "forgiven". There would be no trials for treason. Jefferson Davis himself was never indicted for treason. If Lincoln had not been attacked a great deal of hostility toward the southrons would not have emerged. But the killing of Lincoln made things a lot harder and a lot nastier than they would have been if Lincoln had lived.

Even with things as they were, in the years that followed the war (which was the bloodiest in our history) was referred to as "the late unpleasantness". There was very little recrimination shown to the men who fought for the confederate army. It was extremely rare that anyone referred to this one time rebels as traitors, which in the strict definition of the term, they were.

When Grant negotiated the surrender with Lee at Appamatox, Grant's terms were extremely lenient. He let the rebels keep their horses and even their pistols if they just swore they would make nor more war or fighting (that was called a parole in those days). They were permitted to leave and go back to their homes. No P.O.W. camps for the newly surrendered rebel soldiers.

ruveyn



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16 Dec 2012, 9:25 pm

I don't know what went down in other states but those who served the Confederacy were not allowed to vote in their own state till an amendment was proposed by the legislature of 1871, in1873 it passed by a majority.
Governor Garland fought the "test oath" law which required any lawyer who practiced to swear that he had not helped the Confederacy in anyway.Garland took the case to the Supreme Court which decided that Congress had no right to pass such a law.

Source,same book as earlier

AP,Governor Beebe of Arkansas is a Democrat.
I'm sure you and Sherman would have a stand up good time chasing tail :twisted:



bLueTaEl0nENiGMA
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16 Dec 2012, 10:02 pm

When he was a military governor of Tennessee, Andrew Johnson demanded a stricter oath.
When POTUS he agreed to the 10% sworn in rule and thought 20% or 30% or 40% or 50%
too high a figure, he clearly wanted Tennessee back in first and during his term of office,
he had hoped his home state could be an example for others to follow. The quarrel was over
whether its "one man, one vote" and how strict the oath, or how being involved in the gov't
or the armies of the Confederacy in addition to any money and/or property holdings above
$25,ooo.oo had neccessitated a trip to Washington D.C and a presidential pardon. There are
some very good biographies about him now, in addition to Robert W. Winston's one from
1928 entitled "Andrew Johnson: Plebeian and Patriot" or even Lillian Foster's one from the
1860s "Andrew Johnson, President Of The United States: His Life And Speeches" that is on
Amazon.com! In particular Professor Hans Trefousse's one is very well researched as it goes
into each quarrel around each presidential veto & then the very confusing intense Senate Trial.



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16 Dec 2012, 10:17 pm

Misslizard wrote:
I'm sure you and Sherman would have a stand up good time chasing tail :twisted:


You Betcha!

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16 Dec 2012, 11:32 pm

Raptor wrote:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
"Robert E. Lee was a perfect gentleman and a scholar.As far as scholarly he was a West Point graduate who survived four years without earning a single demerit. ZERO!
Ask anyone who has been commissioned though any military academy like that and they will tell you that the instructors and upper classmen LOVE to give demerits, especially during a cadet's plebe year.


And how many Terms of Service reminders have you received? :P



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17 Dec 2012, 12:23 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
"Robert E. Lee was a perfect gentleman and a scholar.As far as scholarly he was a West Point graduate who survived four years without earning a single demerit. ZERO!
Ask anyone who has been commissioned though any military academy like that and they will tell you that the instructors and upper classmen LOVE to give demerits, especially during a cadet's plebe year.


And how many Terms of Service reminders have you received? :P


Being a conservative many more than you have.
A conservative disagreeing is a personal attack.
A personal attack from a liberal is freedom of speech.


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ArrantPariah
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17 Dec 2012, 8:52 am

Raptor wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Raptor wrote:
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
"Robert E. Lee was a perfect gentleman and a scholar.As far as scholarly he was a West Point graduate who survived four years without earning a single demerit. ZERO!
Ask anyone who has been commissioned though any military academy like that and they will tell you that the instructors and upper classmen LOVE to give demerits, especially during a cadet's plebe year.


And how many Terms of Service reminders have you received? :P


Being a conservative many more than you have.
A conservative disagreeing is a personal attack.
A personal attack from a liberal is freedom of speech.


Well, I'll be sure to let you know when you're getting out of line again. :shameonyou:



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17 Dec 2012, 12:04 pm

And, by that logic, Robert Edward Lee was a Liberal Goody-Goody.



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17 Dec 2012, 12:26 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Well he looks like a villain,I wouldn't invite him to dinner.He might set fire to the place.Lots of arsonists get a sexual charge from burning structures.I bet he was a perv.He even looks like he's playing with himself in the photo.I bet he's got a hole cut in the pocket on the left side of his pants.The other hand is on a box of matches hid in his coat.
I'm sorry the slaves didn't get their land,that would be devastating to think you had it and then you don't.
And I doubt if Sherman really gave them the mules out of the goodness of his heart,it said they were old,wore out mules.But I guess that's better than no mule.


In all fairness, Sherman had intended only to burn Atlanta's industrial center, but the wind made the fire get out of hand. On top of that, the Confederate forces retreating from the city had gone on a looting rampage, so one has to wonder how much damage had been committed by Sherman, and how much by the angry, defeated Confederates.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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17 Dec 2012, 1:09 pm

^^^^^^^^maybe the old devil passed put drunk and dropped that cigar......



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17 Dec 2012, 1:47 pm

Misslizard wrote:
^^^^^^^^maybe the old devil passed put drunk and dropped that cigar......


Definitely more plausible than Kraichgauer'r revisionist version....


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17 Dec 2012, 4:45 pm

Raptor wrote:
Misslizard wrote:
^^^^^^^^maybe the old devil passed put drunk and dropped that cigar......


Definitely more plausible than Kraichgauer'r revisionist version....


Who says it's a revisionist version? Sherman had no reason to burn the whole city, nor the intent.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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17 Dec 2012, 4:55 pm

Quote:
Sherman had no reason to burn the whole city, nor the intent.


Scorched earth policy.....


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