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DentArthurDent
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05 Oct 2013, 7:45 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
The funny thing about the 9/11 issue - whether one believes that it was wholly the work of 21 terrorists and jet fuel melting the supports of the buildings or whether one believes that it was plains plus controlled demolition as an Illuminati/globalist false flag - both are conspiracies, just that one is face value, the other takes on theory in terms of connecting dots via seeming holes in the jet fuel theory or the popular WC7.

IMHO if it wasn't concocted by the globalists - at the very minimum it was incredibly convenient to their goals.


Yes it is plausible that 9/11 was concocted, it this has in all probability happened before, the Lusitania for example, and quite likely the Sarin attack in Syria was carried out by a faction of the "rebels". From all the evidence I have seen it is not plausible that 9/11 was a controlled explosion, even if it was possible to carry this out why would they bother, do folk really think that flying two planes into the WTC was not enough to really piss people off.

Conspiracy theories fall flat when the presented evidence can be easily debated by more rational arguments. Moon landings, WTC etc. That a Bilderberg Group exists is hardly surprising, lets face it history is replete with secretive gatherings of powerful people organising themselves to profit from their position.


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glider18
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05 Oct 2013, 9:02 pm

Well, I'm going to bed. I hope none of you take too seriously my attitude with this topic of conspiracy. I'm just having some fun with it because of the contradictions that even government commissions have in debating such things as the Kennedy assassination. Even if there was a conspiracy, and it actually surfaced as the truth of what happened in Dallas, many people wouldn't believe it because they would want to believe something else. Conspiracy "stuff" as I said earlier is just that---"stuff." And it can provide a lot of fun in researching.

What I do find frustrating is reading such a book as William Manchester's 1967 The Death of a President, which seems to be a definitive publication on the assassination. Manchester appears to know more about the case than anyone living at that time. But then, years later, secret service agents reveal that Manchester said he had talked to them, when they said he didn't. Then it's like---gee, here we go again. No two sources seem to agree with each other. Maybe it's how things are remembered, or how people want to remember them that is the problem. But one should remember whether or not they were interviewed on something this important.

So, as it has gone with me many times in the past, I am tired of the Kennedy case once again after spending the past two weeks reading various accounts of it. I am tired of hearing from doctors who say this photo of the autopsy was not how they saw it. I am tired of reading how the gun found in the book depository wasn't the brand name gun later identified there and that they must have been mistaken when they picked it up. Picked it up---without gloves??? Oh no. Really??? I'm tired of how one source says Kennedy didn't want the bubble top on the limousine, and another source says it was the secret service that didn't want it on. I feel like I am listening to school children describe who was to blame during that school fight during lunch.

I have come to the point---and I am serious here---I don't care. It happened, and the truth will never be known because people probably wouldn't believe it anyway. Perhaps it's already been made known. How are we to know?

So, I am off to begin more credible research tomorrow on something we all know is true---that Bigfoot is saving the earth from alien attacks by standing on Mt. Everest and intercepting incoming UFOs from Mars.


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Nambo
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06 Oct 2013, 4:04 am

MCalavera wrote:
But if they want to call those listed in the site "conspiracy theories", let's contrast them with the vast number of conspiracy theories that never turn out to be true and note how large the ratio is in favor of the unverified.

Also, note how none of those listed "conspiracy theories" actually give one iota of support for the conspiracy theories being argued here.


So you are telling me that you cannot see any similarities between the Operation Northwoods conspiracy and 911?, then I can see why you need big brother to tell you what you should believe and think.



MCalavera
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06 Oct 2013, 4:33 am

Similarities can be found anywhere you want to find them. Some people want to find similarities and parallels between Jesus and Krishna and they end up finding a lot of them. But even if there are similarities, what does it prove? Nothing, it's just a non sequitur unless a logical bridge has been constructed between the premises and the conclusion.



DentArthurDent
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06 Oct 2013, 4:50 am

Nambo wrote:
MCalavera wrote:
But if they want to call those listed in the site "conspiracy theories", let's contrast them with the vast number of conspiracy theories that never turn out to be true and note how large the ratio is in favor of the unverified.

Also, note how none of those listed "conspiracy theories" actually give one iota of support for the conspiracy theories being argued here.


So you are telling me that you cannot see any similarities between the Operation Northwoods conspiracy and 911?, then I can see why you need big brother to tell you what you should believe and think.


There is a bloody big jump from a memo discussing small acts designed to implicate Cuba in terrorism, to rigging the WTC for a controlled demolition. That the CIA, NSA or whoever, had a hand in the 9/11 airplanes has some precedent and is plausible, but the controlled demolition of the towers has no evidence, in fact the evidence quite clearly shows the burning fuel and design of the buildings to be the cause.

Having a healthy suspicion of the actions and motives of those in power is one thing. Being completely ludicrous is all together different.


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Goddard
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07 Oct 2013, 8:17 am

Some conspiracy theories like ''reptilian agenda'' is ridiculous but some others are very very near to reality, and probably are the true, much more than the ''reality'' build by media to all of us.



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07 Oct 2013, 8:23 am

All of you need to read 1984, George Orwell, impressive book. I think that or he was a very good visionary to the near future or he was connected to ''elite'' to create this contraditory post-modern world.
Everything that he write, doublethink, newspeak, big brother, media manipulation the news, all are here.

:(



MCalavera
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07 Oct 2013, 8:56 am

Goddard wrote:
Some conspiracy theories like ''reptilian agenda'' is ridiculous but some others are very very near to reality, and probably are the true, much more than the ''reality'' build by media to all of us.


And yet no evidence that any of them have turned out to be convincingly true after all these years.

Plus, conspiracy theorists follow the media just as much, if not more, than others do. The difference is in what media they follow. Conspiracy theorists have their own big brother, so to speak.



ruveyn
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07 Oct 2013, 8:59 am

Beware of Conspiracy Theories.

Conspiracy Theorist operate from two major axioms:

1. There are no coincidences.
2. The lack of evidence for a conspiracy is certain evidence of the truth that the conspiracy exist.
You are lead to think what THEY want you to think and THEY are expert at covering up their tracks.

ruveyn



MCalavera
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07 Oct 2013, 9:06 am

I find the introductory paragraph from Wikipedia on confirmation bias quite interesting:

Quote:
Confirmation bias (also called confirmatory bias or myside bias) is a tendency of people to favor information that confirms their beliefs or hypotheses.[Note 1][1] People display this bias when they gather or remember information selectively, or when they interpret it in a biased way. The effect is stronger for emotionally charged issues and for deeply entrenched beliefs. They also tend to interpret ambiguous evidence as supporting their existing position. Biased search, interpretation and memory have been invoked to explain attitude polarization (when a disagreement becomes more extreme even though the different parties are exposed to the same evidence), belief perseverance (when beliefs persist after the evidence for them is shown to be false), the irrational primacy effect (a greater reliance on information encountered early in a series) and illusory correlation (when people falsely perceive an association between two events or situations).


Reminds me of something.



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07 Oct 2013, 9:25 am

ruveyn wrote:
Beware of Conspiracy Theories.

Conspiracy Theorist operate from two major axioms:

1. There are no coincidences.
2. The lack of evidence for a conspiracy is certain evidence of the truth that the conspiracy exist.
You are lead to think what THEY want you to think and THEY are expert at covering up their tracks.

ruveyn


The conspiracy theories was created by ridicule the people that ''believe''in it. Coincidences there, when are little in numbers, when you are a sistematic organism of coincidences already aren't more coincidences, are event similar chains.
There are two worlds
the stage
and the behind the scenes

or

the clock
and their inside, when happen your operation

Majority of people choice admire the handsome clock swiss style than observe your gears
or prefer to see actors their perfomance and made up faces than reality.
Reality is cold and ugly.
Simply, there are a cognitive master elite that build events like Second War World. Manipulate stupid average people to change the world accord their proposes.



MCalavera
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07 Oct 2013, 9:44 am

Goddard wrote:
The conspiracy theories was created by ridicule the people that ''believe''in it. Coincidences there, when are little in numbers, when you are a sistematic organism of coincidences already aren't more coincidences, are event similar chains.


You are playing with words here.



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07 Oct 2013, 10:03 am

MCalavera wrote:
Goddard wrote:
The conspiracy theories was created by ridicule the people that ''believe''in it. Coincidences there, when are little in numbers, when you are a sistematic organism of coincidences already aren't more coincidences, are event similar chains.


You are playing with words here.


Yes, i'm good it.
But, the fact that coincidences there don't change or not cancel the other fact that there peoples conspire to ''change the world''. If you have a number of people working to finality without leave out side people to see their actions, so, it could be qualify as conspiration.
The magic conspire to avoid your audience to see the secrets of your magics. When the audience realizes the magic already happen and they internalize the ideia that the magic really happen naturally, when was a ilusion trick.



fibonaccispiral777
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07 Oct 2013, 12:40 pm

I agree, if there is no substantial empirical evidence to be provided that supports the conspiracy then it should not be believed in and remain in the domain of fantasy. I have a problem with believing 9/11 theories of an inside-job on the basis that architects say it was an over '4,000' of them say it was. One because I do not know who these architects are, what their intellectual backgrounds are and whether their information could be considered a reliable source. Furthermore, I do not know enough about architecture to make a reasoned judgement on what happened. I have no problem imagining that a government as corrupt as America's could be capable of setting up such a terrorist attack as cynical as it seems, the American government has an appalling track record regarding deception of its population but if I were to truly consider the facts, I would literally need to spend years on end analyzing the facts and architecture books on how steel collapses and so forth when it is heated. Even then I would feel as if I had not really comprehended the whole issue.

Saying this however, although i am skeptical of conspiracy theories, there tends to be a orthodoxy on behalf of skeptics to dismiss anything labelled as 'conspiracy' when actually there are some conspiracy theories that are known fact. There was a conspiracy theory in the nineteen seventies called MK ULTRA, which stated that the American Government had been performing covert mind-control experiments on its citizens. According to the theory, some of these tests had been done willingly and some against the person's consent. Either way, apparently the people involved were dosed with LSD, developed by Albert Hoffman, and sometimes in extremely high amounts. Some of them were then tortured and some ended up committing suicide. It sounded like something from a movie and thus that is how people treated it, like a cinematic-esque fantasy fabricated by people smoking too much marijuana and becoming paranoid and creating ludicrous theories to undermine the American government. Then twenty years later, the documents were released under the freedom of information act and it turned out it was virtually all true. The CIA had apparently been carrying out mind-control experiments in the sixties and dosed their public on acid to see if they could modify people's behavior on it since they wanted to use it as a form of psychological warfare on the Russians. They also thought the Russians might have developed something similar and thus wanted to be aware of the effects so they couldn't be kept off guard.

These tests labelled MKULTRA were also performed against American citizens who did not even participate in it willingly. A program called Operation Midnight Climax was also set up. During this experiment, prostitutes were paid by the CIA to lure back innocent guys from bars back to 'safehouses', which were bungalows the CIA had set up around the cities. After the unknowing men had been seduced, the women slipped LSD into their drinks. CIA agents would then be behind two way mirrors noting the effects in supposedly controlled conditions. Many of the men involved in such experiments thought they had become mentally ill and needed to see psychiatrists. A man named Frank Olson, who worked for the CIA in this domain, also had his drink spiked when, at a CIA conference, some CIA agents decided it would be fun to spike the punch people were drinking with LSD. Although many of the people who consumed it were perfectly fine, Frank Olson had a bad trip apparently and ended up two weeks later jumping out of a two-storey hotel window to his death. his family found out twenty years later. Thus, this is not a conspiracy it is fact, however it is labelled as a conspiracy theory thus making the claim that conspiracy theories being not true false in some cases.

Moreover, certain skeptics claim that conspiracy theorists claim that the economic markets are engineered by those who control in order to create financial recessions so that they can make more capital from betting on people's losses. This too has been much proven. If you watch Inside Job, you will find dozens of cases of banks manipulating the stock market but also bribing the rating systems companies that rate whether a company is stable or not stable so that people would bet on it to win and then the people that bribed the systems company could bet on them losing and make money. Thus financial engineering and manipulation seems to no longer be a theory.

Sorry for ranting on like this and stating the facts in such a boring and sterile fashion, I sound like a wikipedia page so sorry for all boring you, hopefully some of you may find it interesting :oops:



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07 Oct 2013, 1:47 pm

Is very complicated to understand all of the details about other ''alternative'' (non-midiatic) theories of the reality, but the simple fact that you know that US (and other) government tend to be very corrupt already is the important to build your pattern and remove your own conclusions.



MCalavera
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07 Oct 2013, 4:27 pm

Goddard wrote:
Is very complicated to understand all of the details about other ''alternative'' (non-midiatic) theories of the reality, but the simple fact that you know that US (and other) government tend to be very corrupt already is the important to build your pattern and remove your own conclusions.


No, you look to evidence instead. That's what true skepticism is.