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OddButWhy
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16 Jul 2013, 5:08 pm

BornThisWay wrote:
We are all being victimized by the growing levels of demagoguery in the Angersphere; and in that realm, applying the cool balm of logic and reason is like putting a band aid on a fully metastasized brain tumor.

Sadly, this is very true.



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16 Jul 2013, 5:43 pm

OddButWhy wrote:
When this case got picked up by the media, they thought they had a perfect example of a rich racist white guy gunning down an innocent black kid unprovoked. Oh the ratings they'd get!

"George Zimmerman." Sounds white, German-American, heck, maybe even Jewish!

"Gated community." Hey, everybody knows that gated communities only exist so rich, racist white people can keep those bothersome minorities out, right? That must be a land of mansions that Zimmerman lives in and his neighbors must all be rich racist whites, too!

The rest flowed from there. By the time they discovered that Z is Hispanic, not rich, (and not Jewish); and the much-touted "gated community" is mixed-race and mixed-income, they were too heavily invested in The Narrative to back out. So we got deceptively edited recordings, chronic misrepresentations of the evidence, invention of the term "white Hispanic" and calling 17-year-old Trayvon a "child" instead of a "young man," amid much else.

Did Zimmerman make bad decisions? Yes, particularly exiting his car to walk around in the dark looking to see where Martin went. Doesn't mean he "provoked" Martin in any way that justifies being beaten bloody.


Zimmerman dad is a high ranking mason so is trayvons, seems fishy to me



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16 Jul 2013, 5:52 pm

BornThisWay wrote:
OddButWhy...Okay...so you answered my questions. Thank you.

Since I do not have a television, I did not follow the court proceedings and my information was from reading news reports. I am assuming you have superior information, but it sounds as though you are saying that it was established that Trayvon Martin ran down George Zimmerman...I thought there were no witnesses at that point.

If Mr. Zimmerman got out of his car in 'response' to a 911 operator's question, then he was a fool. Even though he was not on official watch (which explains his being armed), volunteer training consistently emphasizes not putting yourself on the street or ever trying to get closer to a suspicious person (whether Trayvon Martin was a suspicious character or not goes to the mindset and intelligence of George Zimmerman).

When he got out of the car to 'help' answer the operator's question, he was not following the normal protocols of Neighborhood Watch...which he should have been since he was supposedly acting under police direction. It's like this: when he called 911, he should have donned his metaphorical volunteer's hat and behaved 'as though he were on official patrol'.. That means no gun and you don't get out of the car when asked a question...you say, you can't see, or you drive closer. You describe what is happening, you do not get involved. .I cannot see how one can say that he did everything 'right'...the kid died, and he shot him - after he put himself in a place where all his training should have told him - you never go.

Anyway, that's my take...I just hope that now he is a free person, he no longer has the right to carry a gun and that he is no longer associated with any type of watch program. He has proven himself to be too unstable in his judgement to be a member of Neighborhood Watch.

In any event, the entire thing remains a grotesque tragedy that has served to split and infuriate communities across the country. With the protests and disturbances continuing since the verdict...and with more marches planned...I am seriously concerned that the general dissatisfaction, frustration and anger that people have on every front will only escalate.

We are all being victimized by the growing levels of demagoguery in the Angersphere; and in that realm, applying the cool balm of logic and reason is like putting a band aid on a fully metastasized brain tumor.


he was not getting out to follow trayvon he was getting out to look at the street sign for accurate information as the streets change names, 911 telling you not to get involved is a standard answer they say it for everything so they are not legally labial. if someone was hanging from a cliff and you called 911 and they help is 15 minutes away they would tell you not help, its their standard answer. also zimmerman is allowed to carry a firearm still as he has not committed a felony, by the way trayvon did commit one its called felony battery which is when you get on top of someone when they are on the ground and hit them.



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16 Jul 2013, 6:27 pm

So, we see Judge Nelson's incredibly pro-Zimmerman jury instructions, that she allowed irrelevant testimony about the alleged neighbourhood issues be introduced favouring Zimmerman and the incredibly ignorant and proud of it Juror B37 shows that she was lapping up that irrelevant testimony and showed herself to be racist and predisposed to Zimmerman... it's delegitimising the result and that is a welcome thing.



chris5000
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16 Jul 2013, 7:14 pm

xenon13 wrote:
So, we see Judge Nelson's incredibly pro-Zimmerman jury instructions, that she allowed irrelevant testimony about the alleged neighbourhood issues be introduced favouring Zimmerman and the incredibly ignorant and proud of it Juror B37 shows that she was lapping up that irrelevant testimony and showed herself to be racist and predisposed to Zimmerman... it's delegitimising the result and that is a welcome thing.


she was far from pro Zimmerman



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16 Jul 2013, 8:07 pm

Jury instructions covered only the parts of self-defence law that benefited Zimmerman. She also allowed irrelevant testimony to be introduced by the defence suggesting that Zimmerman was responsing to a neighbourhood under siege. Juror B37 lapped that up apparently; she cited that in her very revealing interview and that she was on the jury at all is a great miscarriage of justice.



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16 Jul 2013, 8:21 pm

chris5000 wrote:
Zimmerman dad is a high ranking mason so is trayvons, seems fishy to me

where did you find that out? :o



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16 Jul 2013, 8:24 pm

the main reason for the aquital was being that it was a self defense case and the identity of travon martins killer was never in doubt.what it comes down to is there was not an eye witness, and scratchy second person 911 tapes can be difficult to interperate.most murders are solved without an first person witness but those cases center around DNA and evidence used to solve a "who dun it".
this case was" no who dun it".it is much easier to get a conviction without a witness if forensics proves who was at the seen of the crime.when you have a fight between two people and 1 ends up dead and you have no eye witness testimony.very very few juries anywhere in the U.S would have convicted.
the D.A should have offered involuntary manslaughter and 2 or 3 in a low security prison and at least that would send the message that a private citizen should think long and hard before confronting a criminal without police


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16 Jul 2013, 8:25 pm

Dox47 wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I assume you are quite comfortable that an adult armed vigilante (Zimmerman is not a cop) confronted an unarmed teenager (a child) precipitating a confrontation with no witnesses ending with the child getting shot dead.


I for one am perfectly comfortable living somewhere that doesn't throw people in jail based on emotional reactions and hyperbole rather than factual evidence; you seem to prefer that it be the other way around...

Ironically you are agreeing with Barak Obama, the real reason Zimmerman wasn't thrown in jail is i) local laws pertaining to being allowed to carry a weapon ii) laws allowing the use of weapon in (alleged) self defense and iii) the lack of witnesses which conveniently for Zimmerman means (as it turned out) a lack of evidence to prosecute him



Last edited by cyberdad on 16 Jul 2013, 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

chris5000
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16 Jul 2013, 8:28 pm

auntblabby wrote:
chris5000 wrote:
Zimmerman dad is a high ranking mason so is trayvons, seems fishy to me

where did you find that out? :o

Image
trayvons dad is a grand mason and zimmermans father was a Virginia supreme court judge which makes it highly likely he was a mason too



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16 Jul 2013, 8:35 pm

Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I assume you are quite comfortable that an adult armed vigilante (Zimmerman is not a cop) confronted an unarmed teenager (a child) precipitating a confrontation with no witnesses ending with the child getting shot dead. Unless you've had a frontal lobotomy it should be fairly obvious to you that Zimmerman is very very lucky to have escaped jail time.

Evidence? It takes evidence to convict, not feelings.
And if anyone had called me a "child" at 17 I would have shot them. :P

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No doubt if Trey was a blonde haired teenager and his father was a gun carrying republican tea party member then Zimmerman would have been called a mentally deranged hispanic and a danger to society (which he quite obviously is) and be languishing in jail.

I would have felt no different if Zimmerman were black and Martin white.


A 17 yr old is still legally a child. The race issue probably pertains to Zimmerman's decision to "stalk" Trey on the basis he was a young black male wearing a hoodie in a predominantly white gated neighbourhood.

I take your point re: the jurys verdict and in retrospect the all white female jury (despite appearances) would probably have come to the same conclusion regardless of the victims race due to lack of evidence.



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16 Jul 2013, 9:04 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Raptor wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
I assume you are quite comfortable that an adult armed vigilante (Zimmerman is not a cop) confronted an unarmed teenager (a child) precipitating a confrontation with no witnesses ending with the child getting shot dead. Unless you've had a frontal lobotomy it should be fairly obvious to you that Zimmerman is very very lucky to have escaped jail time.

Evidence? It takes evidence to convict, not feelings.
And if anyone had called me a "child" at 17 I would have shot them. :P

Quote:
No doubt if Trey was a blonde haired teenager and his father was a gun carrying republican tea party member then Zimmerman would have been called a mentally deranged hispanic and a danger to society (which he quite obviously is) and be languishing in jail.

I would have felt no different if Zimmerman were black and Martin white.


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A 17 yr old is still legally a child.

For the reason I already stated and then some, that's a weak very defense in a situation like this.
I doubt Zimmerman asked for proof of age before the altercation started.

Quote:
The race issue probably pertains to Zimmerman's decision to "stalk" Trey on the basis he was a young black male wearing a hoodie in a predominantly white gated neighbourhood.

It's not for certain that he even stalked him. In a community, especially a gated one, that has had recent burglary issues anyone that does not look familiar draws attention. Pulling the race card is invalid because I don't think anyone has a preference for whether they are burglarized by a white or a black burglar.


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Last edited by Raptor on 16 Jul 2013, 10:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.

OddButWhy
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16 Jul 2013, 9:44 pm

BornThisWay wrote:
OddButWhy...Okay...so you answered my questions. Thank you.

Since I do not have a television, I did not follow the court proceedings and my information was from reading news reports. I am assuming you have superior information, but it sounds as though you are saying that it was established that Trayvon Martin ran down George Zimmerman...I thought there were no witnesses at that point.


It was not established conclusively, but there was a strong suggestion that Martin initiated it, at least as strong as the speculation that Zimmerman did. There was one 'ear witness' - Rachel Jeantel. She heard the very start of the confrontation, and the first one to speak was Martin: "why are you following me?" Just before that, the sound of wind, which could have been Martin running. Obviously not running away from Z since he ended up just yards away from where Z lost sight of him.

Martin had four minutes from the time Z lost sight of him to go 75 yards to get home and put a locked door between himself and the "creepy-ass cracker" Zimmerman. I don't know what he was doing during that time, nor does anyone else, but the defense's theory was just as valid as any other.



okie
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18 Jul 2013, 8:31 am

No matter which side you're on, can we stop saying "if the races were reversed" as if the conclusion would be obvious? It's not a hypothetical. It actually happened:

http://www.news-press.com/article/20100 ... y-off-hook



OddButWhy
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18 Jul 2013, 12:39 pm

For a thought exercise with an alternate scenario, with Martin benefitting from the much-reviled 'stand your ground' law:

LINK



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18 Jul 2013, 3:13 pm

cyberdad wrote:
Ironically you are agreeing with Barak Obama, the real reason Zimmerman wasn't thrown in jail is i) local laws pertaining to being allowed to carry a weapon ii) laws allowing the use of weapon in (alleged) self defense and iii) the lack of witnesses which conveniently for Zimmerman means (as it turned out) a lack of evidence to prosecute him


What's your point? You're a gun controller, which puts you in the company of a whole host of odious individuals throughout history, including that German fellow with the creepy mustache that caused all that trouble some years back.

Also, it still seems that you believe due process and reasonable doubt should be subordinated to emotional reactions, which puts you in further bad company.


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