The Israel Empire plan.

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Meh. I was in Brighton when they tried to do Maggie. Honestly they weren't very impressive. At home they did real damage. London...eh. Let me put it this way: my security measures for getting into Westminster consisted of waving at the guard and walking past the tourists and around the metal detector. That's how frightening they were.

Last edited by tarantella64 on 07 Aug 2014, 12:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

As opposed to the thousands of ineffective rockets launched by Hamas this go around? Isn't it the intent that has you so riled up?

See my edit above. Those rockets would be plenty effective, as would the suicide-bombing attempts and the tunnels, if not for very smart and vigorous defense. No such was necessary in London.

Boo, is your issue that Israel exists, or is it that you believe Israel has some vast expansionist Judaea-and-Samaria plan?

I believe that Israel should had never existed - the ancient Israeli kingdom was just a short phase of the middle-eastern history like many empires that had existed like Assyrians, Babylonian phases, the Jewish refugees could have perfectly lived in harmony and evolve as active communities in Lebanon and Palestine, like the Armenians, Kurds, Greek Muslims, Assyrians did; and like the Iraqi Christians and Yazidi's are doing today; even the jewish synagogue is being renovated. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghen_Abraham_Synagogue

No amount of "legal" deals and "legals land purchases happened between the previous conquerors justify anything to us and to the indigenous people of this land. Balfour promise? We would wipe it on our asses, why the britains think that they have a say in forming our destinies?
And oh, the Zionist Jews have seen Britain as enemy too btw, just read real history, educate yourself, yes, they were that treacherous even to those who made their zealotry-inspired fantasy to happen for real.

And the Israel's expansionist ambition is not just a "belief", there are tons of evidences for that, the continuing of the settlements, their refute to the UN vote is one of them, Israel is still refusing any hope for peace.

Do you believe the September 11 attacks were justified?

Israelis don't give anything back because they are nice guys, tarantella, you are so naive, they did that because they needed international support, they they lived on it, there were bigger players. As sonofghandi told you, it was not Israel's idea.





Your old problems with Europe are not ours, it's not us who should pay the bill.

Your % of atheism/agnosticism is irrelevant, atheists can be fanatics too in many forms, and the zionist idea, while it was initially founded by a Jewish atheist, does stem from a religious idea integrated in the Jewish' psych: The promised land of the Torah.

There is no such thing as an "atheist movement" except atheism itself. Atheism has no political, sociological, or anthropological precepts or dogma of its own. Humanism may be strongly linked to atheism only in the sense that since we don't have an afterlife to look forward to we'd better do our goddamn best to take care of one another, but there is no such thing as an "atheist movement".
And even if Herzl was an atheist, that doesn't mean Zionism is an atheist movement any more than the United States is a deist country because all of its founders were.
It has a strong religious support from both Jews and certain western Christian denominations, one of them is the biggest christian denomination in your country, those nutjobs evangelical Christians, 30% of your Christians, they almost worship Israel.






Well, I don't expect better from someone who justifies atomic bombings of two entire cities of civilians (and sous-entendue promoting the idea of wiping Palestinians in similar fashion) to have much sense of morals.

1. Who is justifying the atomic bombing of anything? Not me. I described how the US behaves, that's all.

2. This business with the promised land of the Torah...honestly, Boo, you have been eating someone's propaganda soup for a long time from the sounds of it, because I know exactly no Jews who regard Israel that way. And I know a lot of Jews, Israeli and American. Ah wait, I do know someone, she's a Chasid, very nice lady but also insane with religion. Normal-people Jews? Particularly ones who don't believe in the scribblings? Mm, no. You know, all us American Jews are eligible to go live in Israel. I could go tomorrow and be a citizen. A handful of nuts actually do it. For the rest, it's a very crowded and expensive patch in the desert that gets bombed a lot and was an actual kingdom a very long time ago, and besides, you have to speak Hebrew. We're not that interested, except in its existence as an insurance policy. I'm sorry to disabuse you of this fantasy that we're all hanging around dreaming deep in our hearts of Zion.

I always thought Canada was a much better place for a Jewish state -- all that land they don't do anything with, and temperate! With potable water! -- but you can't sell the story to the Presbyterians.

3. I know Israel didn't tie a bow on the Sinai and the rest. But I can't think of anyone else who's given back land except at gunpoint and after a lot of their own blood.

4. You'd rather still have the Brits? Now there's imperial. And you're delusional again if you think they could have withdrawn without leaving war-strength trouble behind. They did that everywhere they went home from. Except Canada.

The reason there's nowhere for this conversation to go, Boo, is that you're committed to the idea that a Jewish state shouldn't exist there in the first place. So there's really nothing Israel can do that will make you happy, except to go away. Now, if you're willing to sit there being disgruntled without supporting armed attacks on Israel, that means peace is possible. But if it means you're happy to support armed attacks on Israel until it's gone, then I'm afraid you make peace quite impossible.

Since Israel is there, and capable of responding handily to attacks you perhaps support, and you don't like the consequences of the responses, then maybe you want to start negotiating with the Western Christians about how they'd like to resolve the situation by either ceding land of their own or eradicating their own Jew-hatred.

Barring that, perhaps you could learn to live with Israel and make the best of the situation, which -- if that's how it was handled generally -- would mean that within 30-40 years, the current antagonisms would look lunatic. Of course it would be helpful then to drop the wild-eyed stuff about how Israel's bent on regional glomming and will just destroy everyone around if left in peace.

Last edited by tarantella64 on 07 Aug 2014, 6:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

(Oh, and about the atheism/Zionism thing: all I'm saying there is that it's not the usual thing for the areligious, wandering around believing that God promised some chunk of land.)

I didn't say the solution is to undo history, it's too late for that.

Okay, so what do you propose?

They're doing a really pathetic job of making an empire.

The only reason they still have the paltry piece of land given to them (you know, because they were exterminated in Europe), is due to the inadequacy of Arab militaries in conventional warfare.

Fab at making universities, though.

Vote for a Palestinian state as first step.

Today the Christians and Yazidis in Iraq are fleeing for their lives. Non-Sunni mosques are blown up. The Armenians were genocided by the Turks, the Kurds are still oppressed in the different countries they live in. Since you live in Lebanon, you know that often different sects don't get along and just cause to divide the country into seperate groups. From what I understand the political situation in Lebanon is largely caused by the different sects: people vote for parties that correlate to their own people, and some political positions are reserved for certain groups.
Take Belgium as an example, they have been in a political deadlock for twenty years or so. All because the northern half speaks Flemish and the southern half speaks French. These people will never get along, better to cut up the country into two parts.
The problem with Israel/Palestine is of course that the people declaring their new country were essentially immigrants. Still, after WW2 many Jews don't want to be a minority in another country. Would have been best if they had been given some empty stretch of land in Europe or someplace else to create their own state.

This would be personal recommendation for peace in the Middle East. A complete redraw of the international borders that actually makes sense from both a geographical and cultural standpoint instead of clinging to the arbitrary and uninformed borders drawn by people from 2000 miles away.