Interesting thread! In fact it is so interesting, that I finally stopped being a longtime-lurker and decided to actively participate.
One reason for this is, that I feel I have alot of knowledge about this topic, since I wrote my high school finishing paper about Hitler and the Nazi propaganda, and at this time, I even got a little obsessed with all there is to know about the third reich. I'm also from germany, so maybe I can add some things which are not obvious to english-speaking people.
a) The "Hitler was a great speeker, he cant be an aspie argument": I do not believe that this is valid. It is very clear, that in his time serving in the military, he didnt have his political agenda, but also tried to influence people in his way and had very strong opinions. However the people at this time did not accept him at all. His comrades in the military despised him, and there is a statement from his higher officer that "he would never promote this hysteric person".
There is hard evidence, that Hitler at some point received formal training in speech making etc... For his late speeches he also worked countless hours with a photograph, training his hand gestures, his posture etc... Each of his speeches was very very well planned and systematically organized. You also have to keep in mind, that the speeches which are available on audio/video today, are from the time he was well known or got into power. His speech career started much earlier however, so he probably had made lots and lots and lots of speeches and may well have had a steep learning curve.
I believe, that a dedicated (or better: fanatical) aspie could learn public speaking very well, and it seems Hitler did exactly that with a very systematic approach. Of course you cant conclude from this that he in fact was an aspie, but it doesnt exclude the possibility.
But there is another part of the speech argument you could make: Hitlers language and pronounciation of words was very strange and even alienating to most of his listeners (he had a thick austrian accent), and he never managed to get rid of that. However there is good evidence, that most of the nazi leaders, even Goebbels honestly thought of him as the best speaker there was. But not on account of the words or arguments, but some kind of "energy" he seemed to exhale, which they couldnt really define in words. You could consider this to be some kind of "special charisma", which he didnt have to train for.
I think with an aspie making the speech, it should be the other way around: You would have the feeling he is very well prepared, making sound arguments and progressing very logically, but you wouldnt find him charismatic or expressing some mysterious energy. (It is maybe possible that even though someone is an aspie, he possesses this strange quality nevertheless. But I think it is a longshot, because even most NT people are afraid of public speeking and dont appear charismatic if they have to make a speech)
All in all the speech thing is totally inconclusive. And I think it's the only aspect that you could possibly base a diagnosis on. The problem with the rest of the information from that time is, that the Nazis lied and propagated myths like crazy. Some scientists even believe that Goebbel's diaries, which were discovered some years ago, contain lies for the afterworld.
That's why I want to cover the other points only shortly:
b) "Hitler was obsessed with the Jews, he must be an aspie": I dont think you can call his thing an "obsession". There was alot of anti-semitic literature out there at this time, but he did not read too much of it. He even didnt quote any of it in speeches, rather tried to hide where his ideas came from. The thing he was, is fanatically sure about all his ideas, and totally paranoid. His thinkings, that the jews were conspiring on every possible thing did reflect his paranoia, but not any obsession of thinking about them or reading about them all the time.
c) "Hitler was good / was not good with people": Very hard to really base on evidence. I think it is safe to say, that he had some good social skills. In the beginng of the nazi movement, he had to get money. This in part he managed in making alliances with businessmen or other leaders of small groups. This was not something you can do with great speeches, he actually had to have conversation with them 1 on 1. Keep in mind that at this point, there was still a strong segregation between the classes in Germany. If you didnt behave like a "noble person", the higher class would scoff at you and not take you seriously. Hitler never managed to really emulate their behavior, but he did not behave as much as the social class he belonged too, that they would not accept him at all.
Of course he also had many conversations with leaders of other states, like Mussolini, Stalin, Churchill etc... I do not know this with a high degree of certainty, but I dont think there is information that anyone of them considered him socially inadequate or shy or something you would think about a typical aspie.
Also there is his close bonding with the Wagner family (The 2nd generation of Richard Wagner, the composer he highly admired). Their political influence was really limited, so you cant say he just manipulated them to achieve some aims. No you could rather say he actively befriended them, and they all, especially the women loved them. The children were very fond of him too and called him "Uncle Adolph".
So I think it is definately save to say he had some good social skills. If he actively enjoyed the company of people, hard to say. In some cases, like the Wagner family he definately did. He had some social limitations, but they did not come from any autistic disorder, but rather his deep paranoia and unwillingness to trust people.
If I was forced to make a call, I would say, he was not an aspie. I would mainly base this on his behavior in the military. He was too aggressive. He voluntarliy joined the german army, even though he was austrian and would not have needed to serve. He got the iron cross (a badge of honor) for his military achievements. Even at this time he was a crazy big fan of authority. I know aspies like rules, but most dont like to be told by someone, what and when they sould do something. He absolutely strived on this concept and despised his comrades if they ever criticized the decisions of the higher ranking military staff.
But the only thing you can say definately, is that you definately cant say anything! The data is just not reliable. Anyway it is not clear what it should mean if he indeed was an aspie (and I dont think he was). I believe no one is making the Inference "Hitler = Aspier --> Any Aspie shares some traits with Hitler / could probably do the same things). This argument is quite ridiculous because it is quite certain that he was a vegetarian, and it seems that nobody is suspecting them of starting the next world war.
26 Apr 2007, 10:58 pm
