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"It's not a Muslim ban! It's working out very nicely!"

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EzraS
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31 Jan 2017, 8:59 am

androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
As far as immoral goes, isn't that determined by the motivation?

Oh God no; it is in times of trial that we show what we are really made of.


I don't understand what that's supposed to mean exactly (Spock brain at work).



androbot01
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31 Jan 2017, 9:05 am

EzraS wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
As far as immoral goes, isn't that determined by the motivation?

Oh God no; it is in times of trial that we show what we are really made of.


I don't understand what that's supposed to mean exactly (Spock brain at work).

The ban is not against terrorists, it is against Muslims. My proof for this being Trump's own statement that Christian refugees from the countries included in the ban, should be allowed in. What, there have never been Christian terrorists? (There have been.) It is religious discrimination and will be found unconstitutional because of it.



EzraS
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31 Jan 2017, 9:18 am

androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
As far as immoral goes, isn't that determined by the motivation?

Oh God no; it is in times of trial that we show what we are really made of.


I don't understand what that's supposed to mean exactly (Spock brain at work).

The ban is not against terrorists, it is against Muslims. My proof for this being Trump's own statement that Christian refugees from the countries included in the ban, should be allowed in. What, there have never been Christian terrorists? (There have been.) It is religious discrimination and will be found unconstitutional because of it.


If it's purely a nazi-like hatred of Muslims why isn't every country with a predominantly Muslim population being included? As far as Christian terrorists go, is there a Christian equivalent to the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria that's a terrorist threat? I really do wish there was a way to remove Islamic from the "I" in ISIS, but there just isn't. Or remove Syria from the second "S" in ISIS for that matter.



androbot01
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31 Jan 2017, 9:28 am

EzraS wrote:
If it's purely a nazi-like hatred of Muslims

In what ways do you suggest it is "nazi-like," I'm not sure which aspect you are referring to.

EzraS wrote:
...why isn't every country with a predominantly Muslim population being included?

Because Trump has businesses in Muslim countries that are not included in the ban.

EzraS wrote:
As far as Christian terrorists go, is there a Christian equivalent to the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria that's a terrorist threat? I really do wish there was a way to remove Islamic from the "I" in ISIS, but there just isn't. Or remove Syria from the second "S" in ISIS for that matter.

I think the "Christian State" would be the western world. My country just had a terrorist attack against Muslims (who were praying at a mosque.)



jrjones9933
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31 Jan 2017, 9:29 am

We should call them D'aesh, pronounced kind of like dash. They hate that.


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31 Jan 2017, 9:30 am

EzraS wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
As far as immoral goes, isn't that determined by the motivation?

Oh God no; it is in times of trial that we show what we are really made of.


I don't understand what that's supposed to mean exactly (Spock brain at work).

The ban is not against terrorists, it is against Muslims. My proof for this being Trump's own statement that Christian refugees from the countries included in the ban, should be allowed in. What, there have never been Christian terrorists? (There have been.) It is religious discrimination and will be found unconstitutional because of it.


If it's purely a nazi-like hatred of Muslims why isn't every country with a predominantly Muslim population being included? As far as Christian terrorists go, is there a Christian equivalent to the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria that's a terrorist threat? I really do wish there was a way to remove Islamic from the "I" in ISIS, but there just isn't. Or remove Syria from the second "S" in ISIS for that matter.


Because Trump excluded countries where he has Golf resorts and asked Rudy Giuliani to find a way to make a muslim ban that wouldn't immediately be shot down as unconstitutional?


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jrjones9933
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31 Jan 2017, 9:58 am

auntblabby wrote:
we have the gov't we deserve.

Thank you.

Joe Scarborough was worth a watch this morning. He went off hard on how General Mattis and others must feel about being left out of the loop on the Immigration Order. The administration statement seems to indicate that they were left out due to security concerns.

He also delivered the results of his informal survey of his more conservative relatives: People aren't exactly happy with Trump, they are deliriously happy with Trump.


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EzraS
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31 Jan 2017, 11:18 am

Adamantium wrote:
Because Trump excluded countries where he has Golf resorts and asked Rudy Giuliani to find a way to make a muslim ban that wouldn't immediately be shot down as unconstitutional?


So he has a problem with Muslim's unless he own's a resort wherever they are? That doesn't seem like a likely scenario to me. Here's the thing though, isn't ISIS religiously motivated? I mean if Putin's really out to get us, it's obviously political. But with ISIS it seems like a religious thing and they're always saying religious things when they attack. So doesn't that by default make it a religious thing? I mean how do you separate the two? The first word in their title is "Islamic". So I find myself reasoning Trump meant Muslim terrorists. It's not like they all come from a specific country like the Russians. Or that they're performing terrorist attacks in the name of a country. They're doing it in the name of Islam. I'm just trying look at this objectively.



Last edited by EzraS on 31 Jan 2017, 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

firemonkey
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31 Jan 2017, 11:19 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

Any media reporting questioning the American Il Duce is "fake news." :roll:


That's how Fascism(Trump style) works.



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31 Jan 2017, 11:27 am

EzraS wrote:
Pieplup wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, it's not an all out Muslim ban. Trump's still letting in people from countries where the 9/11 hijackers were from, but is keeping his promise to keep out desperate, frightened refugees fleeing from potential murder and torture. Really classy, and sure to keep us super safe, as well! :roll:

Speaking from a personal experience or lack thereof. This has already been happening ever heard of the no fly list pretty much the exact same thing but instead of telling them not to come here just telling them to go back where the came from. But all the same there is no difference.


A difference is that the no fly list came about after something terrible happened. This is being put into action before the next terrible thing happens.

Or you can look at it as something the bad man is doing because he's a nazi.

Well, sure but you could also look he's pony spread rainbows. The question you need to ask is if you can trust your observations. :roll: Is the majority always the correct way of thinking? Or is it neither correct nor wrong?


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EzraS
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31 Jan 2017, 11:34 am

androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
If it's purely a nazi-like hatred of Muslims

In what ways do you suggest it is "nazi-like," I'm not sure which aspect you are referring to.


I mean like Trump supposedly hates Muslims and wants to eradicate them from America the way Hitler hated Jews. I'm not saying you said that, that seems like that's what I'm hearing here and there.

androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
...why isn't every country with a predominantly Muslim population being included?
Because Trump has businesses in Muslim countries that are not included in the ban.


So if he had business in those seven countries he wouldn't have banned them? When I did a search for how may Muslim countries are there are in the world I got, "There are between 49 and 51 Muslim-majority countries in the world". So Trump has business in 42 to 44 out of 49 to 51 Muslim counties and that's the only reason he's banning those 7?

androbot01 wrote:
EzraS wrote:
As far as Christian terrorists go, is there a Christian equivalent to the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria that's a terrorist threat? I really do wish there was a way to remove Islamic from the "I" in ISIS, but there just isn't. Or remove Syria from the second "S" in ISIS for that matter.

I think the "Christian State" would be the western world. My country just had a terrorist attack against Muslims (who were praying at a mosque.)


Are there any Christians who are members of ISIS? Did the shooter in Quebec belong to an organization like ISIS. Is there actually a terrorist organization calling itself the "Christian State" operating in the 7 banned counties?



EzraS
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31 Jan 2017, 11:40 am

Pieplup wrote:
EzraS wrote:
Pieplup wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
No, it's not an all out Muslim ban. Trump's still letting in people from countries where the 9/11 hijackers were from, but is keeping his promise to keep out desperate, frightened refugees fleeing from potential murder and torture. Really classy, and sure to keep us super safe, as well! :roll:

Speaking from a personal experience or lack thereof. This has already been happening ever heard of the no fly list pretty much the exact same thing but instead of telling them not to come here just telling them to go back where the came from. But all the same there is no difference.


A difference is that the no fly list came about after something terrible happened. This is being put into action before the next terrible thing happens.

Or you can look at it as something the bad man is doing because he's a nazi.

Well, sure but you could also look he's pony spread rainbows. The question you need to ask is if you can trust your observations. :roll: Is the majority always the correct way of thinking? Or is it neither correct nor wrong?


Pony spread rainbows? I'm sorry, I really don't know what you're asking me.



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31 Jan 2017, 11:45 am

EzraS wrote:
So he has a problem with Muslim's unless he own's a resort wherever they are?

Maybe he doesn't have a problem with Muslims but recognizes that a large part of the voting public he appealed to int he campaign does. Maybe he is doing this to keep faith with them, regardless of the real geopolitical impact of the move. We have a political officer in the National Security Council now and it may be that domestic political calculation is at least as important as geopolitical calculation in forming an action like this. For other thoughts along these lines, see Scott Adams' blog:
http://blog.dilbert.com/post/1565322257 ... mmigration


EzraS wrote:
That doesn't seem like a likely scenario to me. Here's the thing though, isn't ISIS religiously motivated? I mean if Putin's really out to get us, it's obviously political. But with ISIS it seems like a religious thing and they're always saying religious things when they attack.
Well, Putin's thing may also be driven by irrational emotional forces (such as basic mammalian male competition projected onto national images, a sense of being slighted or disrespected, and so on) but yes ISIS is beyond question a religiously motivated group.

But to equate that with all believers in that religion is really dumb. We don't hold all Jews responsible for the bombing of the King David Hotel or the Murder of Rabin. We don't hold all christians responsible for the murder of Dr. John Britton or the Murders at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church. We can approach those situations with a little nuance and subtlety. Why do we have to go stupid when it comes to Islam?


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31 Jan 2017, 11:49 am

EzraS wrote:
So if he had business in those seven countries he wouldn't have banned them?


NY Daily News: President Trump's Muslim ban excludes countries linked to his sprawling business empire

Quote:
In a striking parallel, Trump’s sprawling business empire — which he has refused to rescind ownership of — holds multi-million dollar licensing and development deals in all of those countries, raising potential conflict of interest concerns and alarming questions over what actually went into the decision process behind Friday’s executive order.



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31 Jan 2017, 12:54 pm

I remain unconvinced that Trump would consider his business interests unless they were directly threatened. I think the text of the order came about through Giuliani, and the details of the rollout came from the Steves. At the moment when they suggest blocking a country where he does have property, he'll balk, but I consider their omission from this list accidental.

I'm dismayed to think this, but a lot of what goes on in any business is people pursuing their own agendas and trying to look busy or productive. If Trump is half the manager his supporters believe, there will be firings. If this is a reality show, it depends on how chaotic things have to get before adults will step in.


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31 Jan 2017, 2:32 pm

How well it works in the long run depends on just a few potential immigrants. It is no secret that we really need the best and brightest of the immigrants as we don't have anyone to replace them.