How could an intelligent person still believe in evolution?

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friedmacguffins
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21 Jun 2017, 5:29 pm

Nothing will convince an unconditional skeptic. There were never any conditions. I live with this kind of behavior, every day.

I may come back, later, and add a couple of names, but, for now, am protesting, just a little.

Were you going to convert to Christianity, when I do. I highly doubt it.

Creationists study both sides and do keep notes, where it is taught, formally.



kraftiekortie
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21 Jun 2017, 5:56 pm

It would be nice if a creationist actually saw the "creation process" in "real time."

We are seeing evolution as we speak. We are not seeing anything "created" by God in "real time."



friedmacguffins
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21 Jun 2017, 6:57 pm

(Back from my BBQ to my fan.)

No one example of a beneficial mutation has been claimed.

Examples of a creative miracle have been claimed but can never be "credible".

Creationists have an unwritten rule called, 'teach the controversy'.

There is a bias, absolutely. But, all of your claims are taught thoroughly, front ways and back ways, inside out, and upside down. Nothing is totally ignored, even if we dispute it.

I'm sure, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there are SNL church ladies and Bible campers, in the mix.

But, academics want you to be prepared with an answer, always. (In season and out of season, as the saying goes.)

I can post factoids, all day, with the www as my cheat sheet, or I can say what are the usual opinions, on my side.

If you are being sincerely curious, I will do my best.

References, though, are usually disputed or of 'questionable credibility'. I have someone disputing the thermometer and weather man, and weather website, today. Why have it, then. (And, with other references.)

It is not un-scientific, to speculate that there was some vague, pre-existent, intelligent force.

None of that means that scientism will take fundies seriously, though.



Pepe
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21 Jun 2017, 7:27 pm

Wolfram87 wrote:
"'cat playing with a mouse' approach"...that pleased me more than it probably should have... :twisted:


<chuckle>

funeralxempire wrote:

Can you name any? Preferably evolutionary biologists, if you've got any on your list.


It isn't fair asking for fact validation...<chuckle>
One must simply accept what is proffered...errr
Oh dear, my childhood religious indoctrination still hasn't been successfully/fully exorcised... 8O



Pepe
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21 Jun 2017, 7:57 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I'm only one of many readers. If you wish to convince the audience make a case. If we just have to take your word that you're right, say so.


Indeed...
Do we simply need to have faith without critical consideration and factual...err...facts?
If so, please remove my weekly subscription to: "Don't wear out your brain...I will think for you..." :P

I refuse to subscribe to any philosophy where the prerequisite is to simply contemplate one's navel and have faith...

Give me that old time religion, it's good enough for me...not! ;)

Hit it , Willie!



friedmacguffins
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21 Jun 2017, 8:02 pm

Your "facts" were in regards to how many ideologues favor an interpretation.

What is unscientific about positing a generic, first cause, under the assumptions of time, cause, and effect.

Or about saying that, under entropy, all systems are prone to decay, and all orders of information generally come from a higher order, without even putting a name on that, or anthropomorphizing it.

You have no intellectual bias against that, are just playing politics.



shlaifu
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21 Jun 2017, 8:10 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
shlaifu wrote:
I think with Einstein, in particular, it was his "god does not play dice"-statement, which made everyone go: "see, he said there's a god!" - but that statement of course was taken out of context, i.e. had nothing to do with his religious tendencies and was merely a poetic phrasing of a certain theory he had...



Also, the idea that reality is relative to the observer is somewhat along the lines of magical thinking.


Some particles seem to have a half life far longer than math predicts. If you take into account their near-light speed, the math adds up: it's halflife, but in particle-time, not observer-time.
Magical devices like particle detectors are being used to verify that

friedmacguffins wrote:
He has taken not-necessarily related things, and multiplied them, to arrive at general relativity. When do people do this in real life. Do you multiply gas times tires, times asphalt squared, to arrive at a car, or can you make pancakes, this way.

Drake tries to multiply star formation by intelligence. Why not apples times oranges.

Evolutionists have a kind of faith, afaic. It makes the veins bulge in their furrowed brows.

I can talk about it, in the abstract, and nothing bad happens. To me, it's just a thought experiment, like when someone imagines riding on a beam of light. No prob. But, I don't live and die by that.



If you multiply tyres eith gas, you end up at nothing useful. To get a car, you have to add them.
If multiplying these things had been obvious, someone would have figured it out sooner.
Figuring it out took a very rare genius.
But now, every kid in highschool can do the match and calculate the energy from a nuclear fission, via the total weight lost in the process. I certainly could.

So, atomic power, and relativistic physics- like it is required for GPS... What else..

Oh, right, peole are doing experiments with quantum entanglement for encryption. Cybersecurity that will be big in WW3.
Einstein called it "spooky action at a distance"- it sounded like magical thinking to him....


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friedmacguffins
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21 Jun 2017, 8:19 pm

I have heard speculations, based on the amount of energy, in a pocket dictionary or thimble full of water, yet no secular ideologue has ever tested that, so much as taking it on faith. You respect Drake and Chandrasekhar on the same level as prophets, as best I can tell. The rules are whatever they say.



Meistersinger
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21 Jun 2017, 9:50 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
rvacountrysinger wrote:
I should have re-worded my question. I'm sure there are intelligent people who believe in evolution... But to me, evolution is entirely illogical. God is much more logical. I believe in intelligent design. That everything was made according to its own kind. That it didn't "evolve" but rather it had a purpose and an exact place in the universe from its very conception . I believe such things as "super bugs" are actually demonic in nature, as are most viruses. But everything has its purpose in our world. I will say honestly, that I am not a science person, in general. I am more into the arts and creative writing. But I studied evolution in school, and as a I grew older I had more questions than answers, and most teachers were left puzzled because evolution could not satisfy these inquiries.

What I want to know is why are people unable to accept alternative theories to our existence? Its always evolution. Almost as if they are indoctrinated. And I believe, mainly, because they want to stamp out God. They can't accept a God of the universe. That would rock the boat.


If you would like to learn more about evolution and just how much evidence there is to support the theory, and how much evidence is lacking that disproves it, check out the book "Finding Darwin's God". It was written by a catholic biologist named Kenneth R. Miller. In the book, aside from all the evidence he presents that supports evolutionary theory and all the creationist myths he debunks with empirical evidence and logic, he talks about his own faith and how he was able to reconcile it with science. It's possible to believe in God and scientific theory at the same time. Einstein believed in God, too. Many scientists do--they just don't let their faith cloud their reason and judgment. Instead, their faith fuels their appreciation for and wonder at what they learn about Creation through science.

https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins- ... in%27s+god


That's my view in a nutshell. I was raised in the Lutheran faith, and so believe in a God of a Triune nature. But I also can't deny the mountains of evidence supporting evolution. Call what I believe theistic evolution.


Ditto. As a matter of fact, when I went through Confirmation 30 years ago, this same question came up in the Adult confirmation group I was attending. Pastor saw no reason why the creation story and evolution can't co-exist. To many fundamentalist groups, this is heresy. Re-read Genesis 1. Where does it say that creation was done in 7 24 hour days? The only measure of time was sunrise and sunset. That measure of time has never been given any further precise measure. We are talking about YHWH, he can just as easily manipulate time, as well as create the universe.

Just like infant baptism, which a lot of fundamentalist groups will deny as a not a valid baptism, to me, it's a moot point.



Kraichgauer
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22 Jun 2017, 1:32 am

Meistersinger wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
rvacountrysinger wrote:
I should have re-worded my question. I'm sure there are intelligent people who believe in evolution... But to me, evolution is entirely illogical. God is much more logical. I believe in intelligent design. That everything was made according to its own kind. That it didn't "evolve" but rather it had a purpose and an exact place in the universe from its very conception . I believe such things as "super bugs" are actually demonic in nature, as are most viruses. But everything has its purpose in our world. I will say honestly, that I am not a science person, in general. I am more into the arts and creative writing. But I studied evolution in school, and as a I grew older I had more questions than answers, and most teachers were left puzzled because evolution could not satisfy these inquiries.

What I want to know is why are people unable to accept alternative theories to our existence? Its always evolution. Almost as if they are indoctrinated. And I believe, mainly, because they want to stamp out God. They can't accept a God of the universe. That would rock the boat.


If you would like to learn more about evolution and just how much evidence there is to support the theory, and how much evidence is lacking that disproves it, check out the book "Finding Darwin's God". It was written by a catholic biologist named Kenneth R. Miller. In the book, aside from all the evidence he presents that supports evolutionary theory and all the creationist myths he debunks with empirical evidence and logic, he talks about his own faith and how he was able to reconcile it with science. It's possible to believe in God and scientific theory at the same time. Einstein believed in God, too. Many scientists do--they just don't let their faith cloud their reason and judgment. Instead, their faith fuels their appreciation for and wonder at what they learn about Creation through science.

https://www.amazon.com/Finding-Darwins- ... in%27s+god


That's my view in a nutshell. I was raised in the Lutheran faith, and so believe in a God of a Triune nature. But I also can't deny the mountains of evidence supporting evolution. Call what I believe theistic evolution.


Ditto. As a matter of fact, when I went through Confirmation 30 years ago, this same question came up in the Adult confirmation group I was attending. Pastor saw no reason why the creation story and evolution can't co-exist. To many fundamentalist groups, this is heresy. Re-read Genesis 1. Where does it say that creation was done in 7 24 hour days? The only measure of time was sunrise and sunset. That measure of time has never been given any further precise measure. We are talking about YHWH, he can just as easily manipulate time, as well as create the universe.

Just like infant baptism, which a lot of fundamentalist groups will deny as a not a valid baptism, to me, it's a moot point.


Absolutely. There is a whole lot of crap that fundies spew at us Lutherans and other mainline churches when they harp at us how we're going to burn in Hell.


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b9
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22 Jun 2017, 2:17 am

in my case, i always consider stuff on my own.
first, i propose myself a question, and then i have fun trying to solve the puzzles that lead to the answer in my mind.

i never start with a blank slate of a mind, and then start reading stuff from other thinkers in order to just become "educated".
i do not care if i am educated unless i desire to know the answer to something that i am curious about.

but if i am curious, i always run it through my own mind to solve it.
then if i read other stuff from great thinkers who have also arrived at the same general conclusion, my belief is fortified, and then i will look into their methodology of arriving at the same conclusion i did.

if i can not get a grasp of the problem on my own, then i will not seek peripheral information from others to help me.
i lose interest rapidly in questions that i realize i have no idea about how to solve.



Pepe
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22 Jun 2017, 2:58 am

b9 wrote:
in my case, i always consider stuff on my own.
first, i propose myself a question, and then i have fun trying to solve the puzzles that lead to the answer in my mind.

i never start with a blank slate of a mind, and then start reading stuff from other thinkers in order to just become "educated".
i do not care if i am educated unless i desire to know the answer to something that i am curious about.

but if i am curious, i always run it through my own mind to solve it.
then if i read other stuff from great thinkers who have also arrived at the same general conclusion, my belief is fortified, and then i will look into their methodology of arriving at the same conclusion i did.

if i can not get a grasp of the problem on my own, then i will not seek peripheral information from others to help me.
i lose interest rapidly in questions that i realize i have no idea about how to solve.


I pretty much have the same approach to philosophy...
I am mostly self taught and much prefer the juicy low hanging fruit...

The idea that I should profoundly study someone else's conceptual building blocks and resultant theories/conclusion is unappealing in most situations...
Much more preferable for me to independently discover (to me) esoteric intellectual constructs.
The revelation/feeling-of-enlightenment is extremely satisfying...

Realising that nothing outside my little life bubble has changed and that so many before me have discovered the exact same truth is more than a little ego deflating, however... :mrgreen:



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22 Jun 2017, 3:00 am

b9 wrote:
then if i read other stuff from great thinkers who have also arrived at the same general conclusion, my belief is fortified, and then i will look into their methodology of arriving at the same conclusion i did.


You should do the opposite. Find the best arguments against your conclusion. You're making a case for confirmation bias.



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22 Jun 2017, 3:03 am

rvacountrysinger wrote:
How Could An Intelligent Person Still Believe In Evolution?


Intelligent people don't "believe in" scientific theories, rather they accept the best possible explanation for observable reality until a better explanation is found through testing and genuine attempts at falsification.



shlaifu
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22 Jun 2017, 3:08 am

friedmacguffins wrote:
I have heard speculations, based on the amount of energy, in a pocket dictionary or thimble full of water, yet no secular ideologue has ever tested that, so much as taking it on faith. You respect Drake and Chandrasekhar on the same level as prophets, as best I can tell. The rules are whatever they say.


Aah. Now I'm getting it.

Is anyone who is not a priest in his or her field a blind follower then?
A blind follower who maybe can do some things at home, which I would call experiments and math, but in this terminology it's more like ritual and scholastics?

So. Screw this.
In this definition I'm a biologist.
A believer in biology.
I merely believe in bacteria, the sourdough fermenting in my kitchen is a ritual, the existence of the bacteria is magical thinking.

I'm an Australianist.
I believe Australia exists.
I've never been there, but even if I had- it would merely be my belief, because, you know: airplanes. Are you kidding me? Who's stupid enough to believe that.


Actually, make me a solipsist.
.


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b9
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22 Jun 2017, 3:12 am

Pepe wrote:
b9 wrote:
in my case, i always consider stuff on my own.
first, i propose myself a question, and then i have fun trying to solve the puzzles that lead to the answer in my mind.

i never start with a blank slate of a mind, and then start reading stuff from other thinkers in order to just become "educated".
i do not care if i am educated unless i desire to know the answer to something that i am curious about.

but if i am curious, i always run it through my own mind to solve it.
then if i read other stuff from great thinkers who have also arrived at the same general conclusion, my belief is fortified, and then i will look into their methodology of arriving at the same conclusion i did.

if i can not get a grasp of the problem on my own, then i will not seek peripheral information from others to help me.
i lose interest rapidly in questions that i realize i have no idea about how to solve.


I pretty much have the same approach to philosophy...
I am mostly self taught and much prefer the juicy low hanging fruit...

i don't know what that means, but it probably means latching on to simple things.

Pepe wrote:
The idea that I should profoundly study someone else's conceptual building blocks and resultant theories/conclusion is unappealing in most situations...
Much more preferable for me to independently discover (to me) esoteric intellectual constructs.
The revelation/feeling-of-enlightenment is extremely satisfying...

Realising that nothing outside my little life bubble has changed and that so many before me have discovered the exact same truth is more than a little ego deflating, however... :mrgreen:

ahh well.
don't worry about it i say.