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Define PC and SJW!

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jrjones9933
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03 Jul 2017, 1:57 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
I can't say I'd argue about the countryside. I'd worry though, and that worry seems to be shared by the Youtube skeptic community - if not all at least most, that they'll do such pernicious things judicially and legislatively (or really are beginning to - add their speech policing on campuses) that they'll make everything they stand for something that public perceives as needing to be fought. That's when you have the urban suburbs as well start increasingly taking on the ethos of the countryside and eventually whatever social progress has been made against real bigotry starts rolling backward.

I haven't experienced a place where the passion for achieving social justice had exceeded available and generally understood injustice. I can easily believe that would happen, and has done so on some college campuses. I'll let you know if further evidence causes me to recategorize it as a looming threat, which I will if I see it getting out of hand more broadly.

ETA It's basic economics that they could use their energy more productively where less had already been done. It's common sense to try something new if what you've been doing stops working.


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techstepgenr8tion
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03 Jul 2017, 4:16 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
I haven't experienced a place where the passion for achieving social justice had exceeded available and generally understood injustice. I can easily believe that would happen, and has done so on some college campuses. I'll let you know if further evidence causes me to recategorize it as a looming threat, which I will if I see it getting out of hand more broadly.

ETA It's basic economics that they could use their energy more productively where less had already been done. It's common sense to try something new if what you've been doing stops working.


I think what I keep running into here in talking to you - I'm stuck with the impression that Sam Harris, Gad Saad, Sargon of Akkad, Computing Forever, Armoured Skeptic, Blair White, etc. and everyone in that community is an entire opinion and idea base that you either haven't heard or perhaps even heard of (or you may have the vague sense of having heard of on of them somewhere along the line but can't remember what it was about). That makes communicating difficult because, if I don't drop the whole thing in your lap, it sounds like I'm constantly revolving goalposts.

The reason I made somewhat of a terse joke about your fill-in guesswork on Jordan Peterson as well is that he's too important a thinker IMHO for someone to have zero familiarity with, even if you agreed with absolutely nothing he says in his lectures - Maps of Meaning, his Jungian/Evolutionary Psych evaluations of the Bible, etc., he's quite influential and for sound reasons.

It's one thing for someone to be familiar with all of these viewpoints, completely disagree, and be able to clearly articulate the reasons why you disagree - a very different matter to paper over what you don't know with guesswork.


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jrjones9933
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03 Jul 2017, 4:43 pm

I think I know something about academia, and would enjoy working in it. I thought about this, among other issues, in several semesters of weekly seminars called Preparing Future Faculty. No one gave anyone anything close to a browbeating.

I've put time into reading about being a PC professor, for whatever that's worth. They put it in very reasonable terms, and our diverse group of grad students had lively disagreements.

I didn't know I had to respond to a pool of received wisdom, rather than your posts and whatever info you provide along with my partly-informed opinions.


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03 Jul 2017, 5:16 pm

I really don't find most professors to be "PC" types. If they are, they won't shove it down your throat.

Most are "regular" folks like you and me.

You do find some, though.



jrjones9933
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03 Jul 2017, 6:04 pm

Listen to: The Culture Inside - http://one.npr.org/i/532955665:533257763

Invisibilia episode about implicit bias


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techstepgenr8tion
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03 Jul 2017, 6:29 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
I didn't know I had to respond to a pool of received wisdom, rather than your posts and whatever info you provide along with my partly-informed opinions.

I was just saying - it's a big gap to communicate much across.


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03 Jul 2017, 6:37 pm

Darmok wrote:
Political correctness is one of the principal ideological weapons of Marxism-Leninism. It seeks to control entire populations by using psychological manipulation and abuse, and by moving the Overton window steadily to the left until the very language of freedom and liberty is suppressed.

Social justice warriors are the cultural agents of Marxist-Leninist revolution. They come in three broad categories: (1) hardcore ideologues, mostly found in universities and in the leadership of leftist organizations; (2) violent sociopaths, as in the antifa terrorist group; and (3) the great mass of dupes, mostly college students and others, who are easily manipulated by the movement's sociopathic leaders. Their goal is to subvert the constitutional democratic republics of the West.

Dude? Are you being serious? Sociopathic leaders? Marxism? What?

I'm guessing that you've never even read the Communist Manifesto. "Cultural Marxism" isn't even a real thing. If it is a real thing, Marx certainly didn't create it. Marx was an economist. He only made a few fleeting comments regarding sex and race. As far as I know, he never discussed the topic in-depth, presumably because that wasn't his area of expertise.

Leninism is also a bastardization of Marxism. True communism is supposed to be classless.

Marx was a champion of the Average Joe. Don't you forget it.

I've made my attitude to the PC/SJW crowd very clear. I frequently disagree with them, but they are no big deal. They are usually harmless boobs who are trying to hard to gain black friends. At worst, they are village idiots. They aren't a serious threat. Don't get mad at them. Laugh at them.

See? This is why I'm starting to dislike the "anti-SJW" crowd. I used to love anti-PC TV shows like South Park ... because South Park was funny. Too many people in the modern "anti-SJW" movement take their task completely seriously.


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techstepgenr8tion
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04 Jul 2017, 11:37 am

Thought this was highly relevant regarding Bill C-16:


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04 Jul 2017, 11:52 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Darmok wrote:
Political correctness is one of the principal ideological weapons of Marxism-Leninism. It seeks to control entire populations by using psychological manipulation and abuse, and by moving the Overton window steadily to the left until the very language of freedom and liberty is suppressed.

Social justice warriors are the cultural agents of Marxist-Leninist revolution. They come in three broad categories: (1) hardcore ideologues, mostly found in universities and in the leadership of leftist organizations; (2) violent sociopaths, as in the antifa terrorist group; and (3) the great mass of dupes, mostly college students and others, who are easily manipulated by the movement's sociopathic leaders. Their goal is to subvert the constitutional democratic republics of the West.

Dude? Are you being serious? Sociopathic leaders? Marxism? What?

I'm guessing that you've never even read the Communist Manifesto. "Cultural Marxism" isn't even a real thing. If it is a real thing, Marx certainly didn't create it. Marx was an economist. He only made a few fleeting comments regarding sex and race. As far as I know, he never discussed the topic in-depth, presumably because that wasn't his area of expertise.

Leninism is also a bastardization of Marxism. True communism is supposed to be classless.

Marx was a champion of the Average Joe. Don't you forget it.

I've made my attitude to the PC/SJW crowd very clear. I frequently disagree with them, but they are no big deal. They are usually harmless boobs who are trying to hard to gain black friends. At worst, they are village idiots. They aren't a serious threat. Don't get mad at them. Laugh at them.

See? This is why I'm starting to dislike the "anti-SJW" crowd. I used to love anti-PC TV shows like South Park ... because South Park was funny. Too many people in the modern "anti-SJW" movement take their task completely seriously.


Anti-SJWs are just as bad as SJWs.


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techstepgenr8tion
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04 Jul 2017, 11:57 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Anti-SJWs are just as bad as SJWs.

Do any particular public figures or Youtubers come to mind on that? I think that would be helpful to the conversation.


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04 Jul 2017, 12:01 pm

While replying to another thread, I had an idea about this phenomenon. I find oppression personally distasteful. I got the usual barrage of bigotry and bias from the culture that raised me. The IAT frightens me; I have a bad feeling about how I would score. My stance against bigotry does involve some virtue signaling, in that I want to reinforce my virtuous tendencies. My parents don't seem to experience the same cognitive dissonance as I between the way that they raised me and the implied values they demonstrated by some of their actions.

That NPR podcast gets better the deeper it sinks in.


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techstepgenr8tion
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04 Jul 2017, 12:10 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
That NPR podcast gets better the deeper it sinks in.


Is it the lady who had the epilepsy operation? NPR's player is broken and I think I'm downloading the right thing but it doesn't seem like what I heard the first few minutes of before.


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04 Jul 2017, 12:38 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Anti-SJWs are just as bad as SJWs.

Do any particular public figures or Youtubers come to mind on that? I think that would be helpful to the conversation.


The SCROTUS would be a particularly egregious example. People like Milo Yiannopoulos. Anyone loudly defending their "right" to hate speech or to generally demean any group they see as "lesser" - women, black people, the disabled, Aspies and so on. We'd be talking about anyone who vocally opposes social justice - people out to protect their own privilege, regardless of who is harmed by it.

Many of these people are authoritarians. Others are people who want to do as they **** well please, irrespective of the harm that they do. They'll as happily throw around the word n****r as they will c*****e.

They're pretty easy to spot.


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techstepgenr8tion
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04 Jul 2017, 12:46 pm

Niall wrote:
The SCROTUS would be a particularly egregious example. People like Milo Yiannopoulos. Anyone loudly defending their "right" to hate speech or to generally demean any group they see as "lesser" - women, black people, the disabled, Aspies and so on. We'd be talking about anyone who vocally opposes social justice - people out to protect their own privilege, regardless of who is harmed by it.

Many of these people are authoritarians. Others are people who want to do as they **** well please, irrespective of the harm that they do. They'll as happily throw around the word n****r as they will c*****e.

They're pretty easy to spot.


So your extreme examples are Trump and Milo. About how much of the Skeptic community would you house in that description as being as bad or worse than the SJW's or people trying to claim and keep their right to oppress? I'm really just curious to figure out about at what line or threshold you consider bigotry to end and legitimate criticism to begin.


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04 Jul 2017, 12:54 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
That NPR podcast gets better the deeper it sinks in.


Is it the lady who had the epilepsy operation? NPR's player is broken and I think I'm downloading the right thing but it doesn't seem like what I heard the first few minutes of before.

It starts with the alien hand story as a metaphor for implicit bias.


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04 Jul 2017, 12:57 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:

So your extreme examples are Trump and Milo. About how much of the Skeptic community would you house in that description as being as bad or worse than the SJW's or people trying to claim and keep their right to oppress? I'm really just curious to figure out about at what line or threshold you consider bigotry to end and legitimate criticism to begin.


I don't think the sceptic community (at least as I understand it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeptical_movement just to ensure we're talking about the same thing) is intrinsically pro- or anti-SJW. As with all groups it includes a share of a**eholes.

Can you provide examples of prominent members of the sceptic movement taking a position one way or another? I mean, I'd typically take positions based on rational scepticism. I'm also pro-social justice, often vocally.

(edited for typo)


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