Your race or sex means you can't speak on this.

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Should people be banned from expressing opinions on any topic based on their race or sex?
Yes 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Sometimes 15%  15%  [ 5 ]
No 85%  85%  [ 29 ]
Total votes : 34

Crimadella
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03 Apr 2019, 6:57 pm

Like the old saying goes, you're are never too old to stop learning, at no point do you ever reach a state where you can't learn something new, unless you just have really serious learning disabilities.



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03 Apr 2019, 7:01 pm

Being a man is a serious disability :lol:


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Crimadella
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03 Apr 2019, 7:02 pm

SaveFerris wrote:
Being a man is a serious disability :lol:

Lol :D



karathraceandherspecialdestiny
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03 Apr 2019, 7:03 pm

SaveFerris wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

It's a failure of empathy, a failure of the ability to understand that other people can have a completely different perspective from your own due to different life experiences.


So pretty much like a lot of the posts on this forum when advice is given.


Please, I've asked you to leave me alone. Please stop. I've tried just not responding to you but you keep trying to talk to me by directly quoting me. I don't want to play along, I don't enjoy talking to people the way you do. I've tried to explain this several times now. Stop trying to force unpleasant interaction, it doesn't help anyone and as I've previously explained I don't find it funny because I don't share your humour. I'm just asking you to leave me alone. As Joe Biden recently had to learn, not everyone enjoys interacting with people the same way you do and if you can't be flexible then you should leave people alone when they ask you to.



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03 Apr 2019, 7:09 pm

@Crim,
You're right ... not all women have used all of the treatments I had. Some may have used other remedies. To be fair, not all women have PMS / PMDD or gynaecological complaints in the first place. Those who do may find simpler treatments, or may not even seek / require treatment. Everyone is different and different things work for different people.

To restate my answer to your original question, no one's opinion is banned "because of their race or sex", or at least I should hope not. My gynaecologist is an Asian man. I'm a Caucasian woman, but I trust him implicitly. This is because of his expertise and years of studying medicine. My first gynaecologist was a black man and he was wonderful too -- but he retired. Many of my surgeons and paramedical practitioners are women, and many are from other cultural backgrounds.

Gender and race aren't relevant, it's about people's personal and professional expertise with the topics. This is true in real life as well as on Wrong Planet.


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03 Apr 2019, 7:17 pm

This thread has gotten very menstruation focused, and while some of the issues at play have come about through this discussion, I think there are larger factors at play here that are not being discussed.

1. People get very frustrated with ignorant opinions, especially if encountered frequently
This requires little explanation, but for congruency with the rest of my points I'll explain it anyway. Collectively us autistics has a shared diagnostic criteria, that we are aware of and most NT people or not. We frequently encounter ignorant statements and advice. An important thing to remember is that ignorance != malice. Most people who give you advice are trying to be helpful even if their advice isn't.

2. Sometimes ignorance is assumed based on race/sex
One should never assume anything about anyone based on their race or sex. Yet, using the example of menstruation, ignorance of menstruation by men is assumed by many. Now I don't think anyone would argue that the average man knows as much about menstruation as the average woman, but SOME men are quite knowledgeable about it (not me) and SOME women are quite ignorant of their bodies' processes (usually if they came from somewhere where talking about it is taboo and education is lacking).

3. Assumed ignorance is used to shut down debates
This is the infamous and hated: "Well, what could you know about it, you're [insert blank]" It's an argumentum ad authority claiming the speaker has more knowledge because of their group status. In some circles it is quite effective, because although logically fallacious, the argumentum ad authority typically works on people. "Trust me I'm a doctor." Things to remember when encountering the argumentum ad authority or accidentally find yourself using it (we're all guilty) is that: assuming your opponent's knowledge and experience is usually a bad idea, and arguments that can not stand on their own merits are usually either poorly thought out, poorly expressed, or both.

4. Argumentum's ad authority are asymmetric for persons of different race, sex, class usually to the disadvantage of the person of "perceived" privilege
Take the classic example of a successful person who has worked hard for their success, but had some lucky breaks giving a poor person some advice on how to lift themselves out of poverty to which the poor person is quite resistant. Many will accept (incorrectly) that the poor person can argue "You don't know what it is to be poor," but will reject the successful person to argue back "You don't know what is is to be successful." Both these statements are logically fallacious, but the fact that the former is accepted, and the latter rejected causes the successful person to feel attacked for their success. Either both arguments should be accepted (unpreferred), or both arguments should be rejected (preferred).

5. People are more sensitive to the asymmetries that work against them than those that work for them
I usually use a sport reference here that might be lost on this crowd. But I've noticed in football/basketball games fans of a certain team tend to notice all the bad calls against their preferred team, while ignoring the bad calls that went in favor of their preferred team. This leads to if you go to sports forums after a tight game, both fan bases claiming the refs "screwed them."


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Crimadella
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03 Apr 2019, 8:31 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
@Crim,
You're right ... not all women have used all of the treatments I had. Some may have used other remedies. To be fair, not all women have PMS / PMDD or gynaecological complaints in the first place. Those who do may find simpler treatments, or may not even seek / require treatment. Everyone is different and different things work for different people.

To restate my answer to your original question, no one's opinion is banned "because of their race or sex", or at least I should hope not. My gynaecologist is an Asian man. I'm a Caucasian woman, but I trust him implicitly. This is because of his expertise and years of studying medicine. My first gynaecologist was a black man and he was wonderful too -- but he retired. Many of my surgeons and paramedical practitioners are women, and many are from other cultural backgrounds.

Gender and race aren't relevant, it's about people's personal and professional expertise with the topics. This is true in real life as well as on Wrong Planet.



Well, at least you get to go to good doctors, my faith in them is a little reduced because of my horrible experiences with them. Like, I have a problem with having very low energy levels, so I asked my doctor what it could be. I do have depression issues, so they try to pass it off as because of depression. It was how stressful my life was because my extreme level of fear around people, but I had noticed that even when I feel good I still have very low energy levels, I tried to tell him that and he continued to go back to the depression theory. Sometimes I would simply be depressed because I had no energy, so I will go to work and be very stressed out, when I get home I can put it out of mind but lack the energy to even stay awake, I may even want to play my guitar but lack the energy to do so, I would just look at it but too tired to get up. Sometimes I may even try to play but just end up playing for a couple of minutes then put it down because I'm too tired. So I end up going to sleep nearly an hour after I get off of work. This kept me in a deep state of depression because all I lived was extreme stress, goto work and be stressed out to the max, go home and goto sleep after an hour so I can go back to work and be very stressed out. He put me on depression and anxiety meds but Ithe did not help. I kept telling him I don't have any energy to even do something I enjoy when I get off work or even on the weekend, I may sleep up to 14 hours in a day when I don't have to work. My mom eventually told me to tell him to give me a blood test so I did and no problem there, so he says it's from depression. Now I'm not depressed and I still have no energy (I ended up quiting after I had to goto the hospital for trying to kill myself). No after I was removed from all the stress I'm not depressed yet still lack any energy. I just found out there is something else I can get checked, testosterone. I haven't been able to get that tested yet though because I don't have any money, I'm trying to get on SSI though so I can goto doctors to try to overcome my fears so I can hopefully do something for work. What I found shocking though is I have to obtain knowledge about things to get tested and request him to test me or else he will just go back to the depression diagnosis.

I also have EDS, most likely anyway, when I roll my arms my bones conStanly pop and it feels like bones rolling over bones, I can pop my left leg all the way out of socket fairly easy, I can make my shoulder blades pop out of my back like sails on a ship and have something going on with a disc between my shoulder blades, I keep telling doctors and they just look at me like I'm lying. I had to goto a chiropractor one time, they put me on the table that moves back and forth that has the rolling pin that goes up and down your back, when it gets between my shoulder blades the whole bone just moves out of the way, part of my spine. They don't tend to believe me though. I had discovered it years before, it was really sore and giving me a headache, I was standing up trying to feel where the pain was coming from, my arms are flexible enough that I can reach around to feel every part of my spine. I found that spot and noticed it was sore and I pushed on it a little hard and the whole bone slid in, then it felt like fire shot down from that spot all the way to my feet and my legs gave out, it hurt so bad I couldn't even stick my arms out to break my fall so I landed with my face smacking the ground and had to lay there unable to move with bugs crawling on me for about 30 minutes, finally I could move my arms a little without it hurting so bad and had to pull my self with my arms only about 50 ft then up 5 steps, it was pretty painful to reach the screen door handle but I managed after a few minutes and pulled myself inside and had to lay there a few hours before I could get up to walk to bed, it was still very painful and I couldn't straighten my back. I tell doctors this and they look at me like I'm lying and don't offer any explanation, they feel up my back with me sitting on a table then never mention it again. 4 different doctors have done that. Finally I heard from one of my mom's friend at work that his daughter has EDS and after I told him everything and showed him how I can pop my shoulder blades straight out of my back he said it sounds like I have EDS like his daughter. I had let the doctor listen to my shoulders as I move them around and let him hear all the popping before and he didn’t say anything, this time I told him someone who has a daughter with EDS said it sounds like I have it, so I showed him how I can pop my shoulder blades out and my left leg and he diagnosed me with musculoskeletal hypermobility, I was supposed to goto a back doctor for further diagnosis but can afford to.

Anyway, there is a lot of other things, I keep running into situations where I have to actually tell the doctor what problem to specifically check for or else they will just throw me a handful of meds that don't help, same thing with my autism. I keep thinking I'll have a good doctor from the first visit, then they quickly get into a routine of just spending 5 minutes with me, don't even ask me much and keep me on meds that don't help at all. It gets very frustrating and it cost me thousands of dollars and not one issue was ever resolved.



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03 Apr 2019, 8:49 pm

My phone was dying. Anyway, I eventually found out about an herb called Kratom which helps for pain, for some reason it also solves my energy issue and I can actually be active. before i discovered it I was so tired, even without working that I was sleeping 16 to 20 hours a day, even too tired to get on the computer. I have very horrible experiences with doctors. Like my gastritis that I've had for like 3 years now, I've tried different diets and nothing has worked. Yet again though, I had to learn about these diets from my mom, the gastrologist never even mentioned things like lactose intolerance or gluten diets. I had a cam down my throat and a biopsy and got cleared for what ever that bacteria that causes gastritis is. All my mental health doc did was give me depression medication, I'm going to try the combination of a psychiatrist and a councilor when I get SSI because my memory and anxiety is so horrible that I'm not really good at informing them of all my issues, plus they don't tend to give me any time past the first visit anyway.

I guess the point is, the doctors I have went to just seem to suck, there are many things they could have tried and oddly I was the one who had to come up with alternative possibilities.



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03 Apr 2019, 8:50 pm

:skull:

Antrax wrote:
This thread has gotten very menstruation focused, and while some of the issues at play have come about through this discussion, I think there are larger factors at play here that are not being discussed.

1. People get very frustrated with ignorant opinions, especially if encountered frequently
This requires little explanation, but for congruency with the rest of my points I'll explain it anyway. Collectively us autistics has a shared diagnostic criteria, that we are aware of and most NT people or not. We frequently encounter ignorant statements and advice. An important thing to remember is that ignorance != malice. Most people who give you advice are trying to be helpful even if their advice isn't.

2. Sometimes ignorance is assumed based on race/sex
One should never assume anything about anyone based on their race or sex. Yet, using the example of menstruation, ignorance of menstruation by men is assumed by many. Now I don't think anyone would argue that the average man knows as much about menstruation as the average woman, but SOME men are quite knowledgeable about it (not me) and SOME women are quite ignorant of their bodies' processes (usually if they came from somewhere where talking about it is taboo and education is lacking).

3. Assumed ignorance is used to shut down debates
This is the infamous and hated: "Well, what could you know about it, you're [insert blank]" It's an argumentum ad authority claiming the speaker has more knowledge because of their group status. In some circles it is quite effective, because although logically fallacious, the argumentum ad authority typically works on people. "Trust me I'm a doctor." Things to remember when encountering the argumentum ad authority or accidentally find yourself using it (we're all guilty) is that: assuming your opponent's knowledge and experience is usually a bad idea, and arguments that can not stand on their own merits are usually either poorly thought out, poorly expressed, or both.

4. Argumentum's ad authority are asymmetric for persons of different race, sex, class usually to the disadvantage of the person of "perceived" privilege
Take the classic example of a successful person who has worked hard for their success, but had some lucky breaks giving a poor person some advice on how to lift themselves out of poverty to which the poor person is quite resistant. Many will accept (incorrectly) that the poor person can argue "You don't know what it is to be poor," but will reject the successful person to argue back "You don't know what is is to be successful." Both these statements are logically fallacious, but the fact that the former is accepted, and the latter rejected causes the successful person to feel attacked for their success. Either both arguments should be accepted (unpreferred), or both arguments should be rejected (preferred).

5. People are more sensitive to the asymmetries that work against them than those that work for them
I usually use a sport reference here that might be lost on this crowd. But I've noticed in football/basketball games fans of a certain team tend to notice all the bad calls against their preferred team, while ignoring the bad calls that went in favor of their preferred team. This leads to if you go to sports forums after a tight game, both fan bases claiming the refs "screwed them."


Nice analysis!



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03 Apr 2019, 8:53 pm

I'm sorry to hear this.
It sounds like there are many barriers to comprehensive health care in the US.

Good luck with your insurance and your specialists in the future.


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03 Apr 2019, 9:34 pm

Just got back from work and I see this thread's moving fast.

Also yeah - it's kind of what I figured, lane-keeping tutorial. If I can think of another honest question or two that might set the thread on fire, since that's probably about the most productive thing one can do here, I'll revisit.


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04 Apr 2019, 12:31 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
SaveFerris wrote:
karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:

It's a failure of empathy, a failure of the ability to understand that other people can have a completely different perspective from your own due to different life experiences.


So pretty much like a lot of the posts on this forum when advice is given.


Please, I've asked you to leave me alone. Please stop. I've tried just not responding to you but you keep trying to talk to me by directly quoting me. I don't want to play along, I don't enjoy talking to people the way you do. I've tried to explain this several times now. Stop trying to force unpleasant interaction, it doesn't help anyone and as I've previously explained I don't find it funny because I don't share your humour. I'm just asking you to leave me alone. As Joe Biden recently had to learn, not everyone enjoys interacting with people the same way you do and if you can't be flexible then you should leave people alone when they ask you to.


I'm sorry , it wont happen again as I quit


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magz
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04 Apr 2019, 1:17 am

SaveFerris wrote:
I'm sorry , it wont happen again as I quit

No, please, don't, I will miss you!
Image


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04 Apr 2019, 2:17 am

karathraceandherspecialdestiny wrote:
sly279 wrote:
I’ve always noticed women I’ve met or seen on social media wish men wouldn’t be embarrassed by periods and avoid it like the plaque, yet you all seem too wish they would do exactly that and pretend it doesn’t exist. 0.o

It’s just another medical issue and I don’t think one should hide or want their spouse to pretend such condition doesn’t exist. Mean I don’t want advice about autism but I wouldn’t want it just ignored and never talked about.


No one is saying you should pretend it doesn't happen or that you're not allowed to talk about it at all, we're just asking that men stop making suggestions to us about ways to deal with it because men always do that without thinking that we've probably already tried it and it's been suggested before. Don't give advice on how to deal with something you don't experience, that's not hard to avoid.

So women shouldn’t be able to Debate or give advice on Circumcision? Or other male issues? CSU’s it’s mostly women who seem to support and defend it here.

And anti gun people can’t give input on guns or gun control as they have zero experience with it.
People who’ve had relationships can’t talk about those who’ve never had and never will have .
Etc his could be applied to everything


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magz
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04 Apr 2019, 2:50 am

sly279 wrote:
So women shouldn’t be able to Debate or give advice on Circumcision? Or other male issues? CSU’s it’s mostly women who seem to support and defend it here.

And anti gun people can’t give input on guns or gun control as they have zero experience with it.
People who’ve had relationships can’t talk about those who’ve never had and never will have .
Etc his could be applied to everything

I imagine a situation: a woman says she feels very bad during pregnancy.
She gets two replies:
1. I have given birth to six children and worked full time for all my pregnancy time. Women who take leave for their pregnancies are just lazy.
2. My wife was like that during her second pregnancy, she hardly could leave her bed during second trimester.
Which of the responders has more insight into the op's situation?


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04 Apr 2019, 8:59 am

magz wrote:
... imagine a situation: a woman says she feels very bad during pregnancy. She gets two replies:

1. "I have given birth to six children and worked full time for all my pregnancy time. Women who take leave for their pregnancies are just lazy."

2. "My wife was like that during her second pregnancy, she hardly could leave her bed during second trimester."

Which of the responders has more insight into the op's situation?
The first, of course.

But you also left out:

3. "According to this one article I read on the Internet ..."

4. "My Aunt is a pediatrician, so I think you should ..."

5. "Hmm ... I'll have my nurse set up an appointment for you in my office. How soon can you come in?"

It isn't so much whether or not a man should give his opinion on women's reproductive issues, but that if his only claim to authority is his "Freedom of Speech", then what he has to say probably isn't going to be worth much.