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IsabellaLinton
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04 Jul 2022, 10:20 pm

funeralxempire wrote:


My friend Tamara claimed to have ended up registered because she sent a dirty video to a classmate (who got the same outcome) who sent it to a bunch of people. A few years later reforms occurred there (after her and I had lost contact) but I hope that isn't still following her.

Imagine spending your life as a child sex offender where you're both the victim and the perp. How the hell does someone who isn't entitled to consent also able to be held responsible as an offender, especially when they're also the victim?

It would be almost impossible to actually account for everyone's maturity and development (especially mental) a system that's intended to be compassionate and return people back to being functional members of society needs to be able to apply at least a degree of nuance in how it pursues criminal cases against people who are still developing, especially if there's concrete evidence of factors that probably should be considered as mitigating.

We don't live in a perfect world but as far as I know we're still allowed to discuss flaws, right?


I get your point that they were both underaged and both vulnerable minors.

I don't know enough about what the video was, to judge her or not.
Was she charged because of her age (only), or because of something specific to the content?

Likewise I don't think very well of him sending it to others, but maybe he was traumatised.

You said he got the same outcome.
Do you mean he's also a registered sex offender?

When did this law change, exactly, and do you know which law it is?

Edit: Wait. You didn't say how old they were?
Edit Again: They were both children.


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funeralxempire
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04 Jul 2022, 10:30 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
If the law's understanding deviates from what actually is, that's a flaw and not something we should praise. If the law insists on treating people who are not victims as victims and refuses to consider anything but, that's not a positive. That's an action that actually does victimize those people -

- especially if it has actual, concrete negative outcomes on people who maybe don't need to have those additional hardships in their lives. That's not a positive, that's something to condemn even if it's unlikely to be fixed in the short term or is unlikely to become a priority. But hey, you made a strong point with naninanibooboo nothing's ever going to improve.


Statutory rape is a crime that does victimize people according to research which is why it is (and should be) a crime.

You don’t know whether or not the victims here felt victimized. You are just inserting your own personal feelings.


I've never disagreed with the former, it's undeniable that some people are harmed. Does the research give an ideal age, or does it concede that it's complicated and nuanced issue that might not have a single perfect answer?

I've never spoken as to the feelings of any specific individual outside of people I actually know. I've otherwise been careful to stick to generalities because of course I can't offer insight. I pointed out the problem, don't act like I'm unaware or trying to get away with it while I've actually identified that it's relevant to anyone including myself - it's simply not honest of you.

The fact that charges were brought doesn't prove anything, someone who wishes to not cooperate can express agency by doing so but depending on the evidence that might not be an option, so it's not a strong indicator. Some parents might be overzealous, others might be underzealous in cases where it's actually warranted.

Since the whole thing is imperfect it's bound to make mistakes that are justified by the rubric but not by reality. Since that's a likelihood it's reasonable to advocate for showing leniency where possible when dealing with younger offenders, even if we don't extend that to people who are adults but still young enough to be recognized as consistently not yet fully matured.


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TwilightPrincess
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04 Jul 2022, 10:35 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:
If the law's understanding deviates from what actually is, that's a flaw and not something we should praise. If the law insists on treating people who are not victims as victims and refuses to consider anything but, that's not a positive. That's an action that actually does victimize those people -

- especially if it has actual, concrete negative outcomes on people who maybe don't need to have those additional hardships in their lives. That's not a positive, that's something to condemn even if it's unlikely to be fixed in the short term or is unlikely to become a priority. But hey, you made a strong point with naninanibooboo nothing's ever going to improve.


Statutory rape is a crime that does victimize people according to research which is why it is (and should be) a crime.

You don’t know whether or not the victims here felt victimized. You are just inserting your own personal feelings.


I've never disagreed with the former, it's undeniable that some people are harmed. Does the research give an ideal age, or does it concede that it's complicated and nuanced issue that might not have a single perfect answer?

I've never spoken as to the feelings of any specific individual outside of people I actually know. I've otherwise been careful to stick to generalities because of course I can't offer insight. I pointed out the problem, don't act like I'm unaware or trying to get away with it while I've actually identified that it's relevant to anyone including myself - it's simply not honest of you.

The fact that charges were brought doesn't prove anything, someone who wishes to not cooperate can express agency by doing so but depending on the evidence that might not be an option, so it's not a strong indicator. Some parents might be overzealous, others might be underzealous in cases where it's actually warranted.

Since the whole thing is imperfect it's bound to make mistakes that are justified by the rubric but not by reality. Since that's a likelihood it's reasonable to advocate for showing leniency where possible when dealing with younger offenders, even if we don't extend that to people who are adults but still young enough to be recognized as consistently not yet fully matured.


I do not think it would EVER be okay for a 19 year old to have sex with a 14 year old. Period.

Further, some pedos could claim that their victims were “mature” so it doesn’t count. There needs to be hard and fast rules and standards based on data that can not be manipulated, like age.

If people choose to break the law, that’s their problem. THEY’VE messed their life up, not the laws themselves.

(Disclaimer: disagreeing with you does not equal gaslighting.)



Last edited by TwilightPrincess on 04 Jul 2022, 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

funeralxempire
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04 Jul 2022, 10:37 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
funeralxempire wrote:


My friend Tamara claimed to have ended up registered because she sent a dirty video to a classmate (who got the same outcome) who sent it to a bunch of people. A few years later reforms occurred there (after her and I had lost contact) but I hope that isn't still following her.

Imagine spending your life as a child sex offender where you're both the victim and the perp. How the hell does someone who isn't entitled to consent also able to be held responsible as an offender, especially when they're also the victim?

It would be almost impossible to actually account for everyone's maturity and development (especially mental) a system that's intended to be compassionate and return people back to being functional members of society needs to be able to apply at least a degree of nuance in how it pursues criminal cases against people who are still developing, especially if there's concrete evidence of factors that probably should be considered as mitigating.

We don't live in a perfect world but as far as I know we're still allowed to discuss flaws, right?


I get your point that they were both underaged and both vulnerable minors.

I don't know enough about what the video was, to judge her or not.
Was she charged because of her age (only), or because of something specific to the content?

Likewise I don't think very well of him sending it to others, but maybe he was traumatised.

You said he got the same outcome.
Do you mean he's also a registered sex offender?

When did this law change, exactly, and do you know which law it is?

Edit: Wait. You didn't say how old they were?
Edit Again: They were both children.


It was Australia, it's been ages. She was 13 at the time and they were classmates. Between the level camera phones were at and the description it couldn't have been more than a few seconds of barely distinguishable video of her crotch in the bathroom.

I'm trying to find details on when changes were made regarding self-made porn and the country is inconsistent from state-to-state with the laws that deal with physical contact.


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funeralxempire
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04 Jul 2022, 10:39 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
(Disclaimer: disagreeing with you does not equal gaslighting.)


Denying someone's assessment of their own experience on the other hand...

Of course, repeatedly insisting that you're not gaslighting someone is never an indicator of the opposite. :nerdy:

I wouldn't accept the defense's assessment of whether or not the other party was mature, they have an obvious interest to always claim that. It'd be reasonable to have involved parties assessed instead of just taking any rule of thumb as actually meaning much when discussing individuals.

You can insist that no one at those ages can count as peers, but that's just like your opinion man and I'm not willing to destroy someone's future based on your opinion, I was serious issues to be given the consideration they deserve instead of reduced to a rubric because any rubric that's offered will be imperfect.

Oh, well they deserve it?

I wonder what your misanthropy and inability to demonstrate compassion makes you deserve. :roll:


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Last edited by funeralxempire on 04 Jul 2022, 10:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

IsabellaLinton
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04 Jul 2022, 10:40 pm

The 19 year old woman who came to visit my daughter was queer.
This was at the age when I started to suspect my daughter liked girls.
I would be wary of any 19 year old being interested in a 14 year old regardless of gender.
It had an extra layer of crush / sexuality about it.
Looking back I bet the 19 yo was autistic, and developmentally delayed.

That wouldn't change anything in my mind though.

No 19/14 should be in a relationship, or any ages close to that.


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04 Jul 2022, 10:41 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Twilightprincess wrote:
(Disclaimer: disagreeing with you does not equal gaslighting.)


Denying someone's assessment of their own experience on the other hand...

Of course, repeatedly insisting that you're not gaslighting someone is never an indicator of the opposite. :nerdy:


I never mentioned your specific story. You are inserting your narrative into whatever I say that you disagree with.

You must be gaslit often. :roll:



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04 Jul 2022, 10:42 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
No 19/14 should be in a relationship, or any ages close to that.


Agreed.



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04 Jul 2022, 10:52 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
I wonder what your misanthropy and inability to demonstrate compassion makes you deserve. :roll:


I’m a couple of students’ favorite teacher (special education), not that I “deserve” it.

I am compassionate, especially towards victims of child abuse.



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04 Jul 2022, 11:10 pm

One thing that would do a big part in solving this problem(not that all of you see it as a problem, for whatever reason)Is if all the states that don't have a minor lying about his/her age as a valid defense to make it a valid defense.

"He should've asked for proof that she's of age". You expect everyone to just know how easy it is to become a sex offender? I would agree that being taught the importance of knowing her age for sure is something important to learn, but that's because of the existence of the laws that not everyone knows about.

Everyone in their right mind know's it's illegal to have sex with minors. I just don't understand why so many people believe someone should be punished so harshly when they meant no bad intent.


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04 Jul 2022, 11:18 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
I just don't understand why so many people believe someone should be punished so harshly when they meant no bad intent.


It’s our responsibility, as adults, to make sure that the person we are sleeping with is of legal age.

The reality is that kids do stupid stuff all the time. It’s our job, as adults, to look out for them.

We can’t know what the person in the article’s intent was. Maybe he’s just looking for a loophole. Most pedophiles claim they are innocent. The law cannot make exceptions for this reason (among others).



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04 Jul 2022, 11:21 pm

IsabellaLinton wrote:
The 19 year old woman who came to visit my daughter was queer.
This was at the age when I started to suspect my daughter liked girls.
I would be wary of any 19 year old being interested in a 14 year old regardless of gender.
It had an extra layer of crush / sexuality about it.
Looking back I bet the 19 yo was autistic, and developmentally delayed.

That wouldn't change anything in my mind though.

No 19/14 should be in a relationship, or any ages close to that.


Had things had turned out differently, would you have sought to have the book thrown at the other woman, or would you ensure things end, explain why it can't be allowed and see that's enough to get the desired outcome?

I can't imagine having a good solution if I can't not perceive the older one as also being a kid/approximate peer. You wouldn't want to turn a blind eye to someone who's emerging as a problem; I'd worry about labelling someone as an emerging problem if it never amounted to more than a teachable moment but it might be impossible to tell until years down the road.


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04 Jul 2022, 11:33 pm

CubsBullsBears wrote:
One thing that would do a big part in solving this problem(not that all of you see it as a problem, for whatever reason)Is if all the states that don't have a minor lying about his/her age as a valid defense to make it a valid defense.

"He should've asked for proof that she's of age". You expect everyone to just know how easy it is to become a sex offender? I would agree that being taught the importance of knowing her age for sure is something important to learn, but that's because of the existence of the laws that not everyone knows about.

Everyone in their right mind know's it's illegal to have sex with minors. I just don't understand why so many people believe someone should be punished so harshly when they meant no bad intent.


I do understand what you're saying.
There's the part of me that says two teens might really like each other.
It can be consensual, as much as that's possible when one is underaged.
Legally though, it's not consensual.

The problem is that "teenaged hormones" could always be used as an excuse.
... Especially if you're saying that it's OK for people not to know the law.
Everyone would say they didn't know better.

We have to protect our most vulnerable citizens.
There has to be a firm rule so that there's no wiggle room (no pun intended) for abuse of children.
That can include emotional abuse too, when they get in over their heads with infatuation.


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04 Jul 2022, 11:33 pm

Twilightprincess wrote:
CubsBullsBears wrote:
I just don't understand why so many people believe someone should be punished so harshly when they meant no bad intent.


It’s our responsibility, as adults, to make sure that the person we are sleeping with is of legal age.

The reality is that kids do stupid stuff all the time. It’s our job, as adults, to look out for them.

We can’t know what the person in the article’s intent was. Maybe he’s just looking for a loophole. Most pedophiles claim they are innocent. The law cannot make exceptions for this reason (among others).


There's other situations where ability to consent can become complicated and an hypothetical becomes an oversimplification what would need to be considered in a real one, but as an example: How drunk does one need to be before they're the victim of being taken advantage of while intoxicated instead of being the perp because the other partner had some other issue relevant to consent (power imbalance, age, intoxication, etc)?

(I'd suggest anyone who can plan that as a defence in advance doesn't count, but not everyone who's been assaulted would want to report it, all the more if it's especially compromising.)

Situations like that should almost always been scrutinized as closely as possible to understand the details as they best can be because deeply inconsistent cases would be hard to treat in a consistent manner.


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04 Jul 2022, 11:40 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
IsabellaLinton wrote:
The 19 year old woman who came to visit my daughter was queer.
This was at the age when I started to suspect my daughter liked girls.
I would be wary of any 19 year old being interested in a 14 year old regardless of gender.
It had an extra layer of crush / sexuality about it.
Looking back I bet the 19 yo was autistic, and developmentally delayed.

That wouldn't change anything in my mind though.

No 19/14 should be in a relationship, or any ages close to that.


Had things had turned out differently, would you have sought to have the book thrown at the other woman, or would you ensure things end, explain why it can't be allowed and see that's enough to get the desired outcome?

I can't imagine having a good solution if I can't not perceive the older one as also being a kid/approximate peer. You wouldn't want to turn a blind eye to someone who's emerging as a problem; I'd worry about labelling someone as an emerging problem if it never amounted to more than a teachable moment but it might be impossible to tell until years down the road.


It's hard to say because I see it all in hindsight now.
They met innocently enough on a special-interest forum.
It wasn't like this chick was cruising the internet looking for minors.
She had also travelled much of the world meeting online friends.

When I got the airport phone call, my daughter showed me a lot of correspondence.
It was a lot of harmless shared-interest stuff.
She'd also received some hand-written cards and letters, all very cosplay type stuff.

It was the kind of thing where I couldn't exactly tell my daughter to stop contact.
I had to be reasonable enough to see they had a good friendship.
I wasn't about to kick my daughter off the internet or monitor her use.

If she had tried anything romantic or sexual during the visit, I would have reported it.
It never did turn into that, but I was very leery and freaked out at the time.

* cosplay isn't the right word -- but imagination world type stuff


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04 Jul 2022, 11:42 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
Situations like that should almost always been scrutinized as closely as possible to understand the details as they best can be because deeply inconsistent cases would be hard to treat in a consistent manner.


(This is a very triggering conversation for me.)

We aren’t talking about the sexual assault of adults. We are talking about minors. There really aren’t grey areas here (although there always will be people who try to exploit the law). Of course, one should consult the laws in one’s individual state, but wanting to have sex with a 14 year old is creepy. Individuals who want that should seek treatment.

5 years here is WAY too much of an age difference.