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Speckles
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22 May 2008, 9:17 pm

Griff wrote:
Men are psychologically vulnerable, and there are many "date rape" situations in which the male is as much a victim as his partner. It is nonsense to assume that you have to lay your hands on a person in order to violate him or her. It's a murky issue, but it is one that needs to be addressed. I am very tired of living in society in which men are made out to be either ogres or morons. Misandry is every bit as evil as misogyny.

Furthermore, I am sickened that some nonexistent "glass ceiling" is held responsible for men's advantages in such fields as engineering. We don't purposely exclude women from entering the field, but every single time the subject comes up, I hear so-called "feminists" whining and moaning about the "glass ceiling." I sympathize with their cause where it is meaningful, but it is both ridiculous and reprehensible to blame some conspiracy on something that is more than likely rooted in biology. Should I blame feminists for the greater prevalence of autism in males? Frankly, I think that modern Western feminists are a bunch of ignorant bitties who want to hold some made-up conspiracy responsible for every pissy problem in their entire lives. Rest assured, I support their cause whole-heartedly, but I find them embarrassing.

Once again, though, problems related to sexual and social misconduct are best remedied by relatively rigid egalitarianism. It is time-tested, and it has become one of our most important sociological tools. Unfortunately, social conservatives are too stupid to realize the true importance of this tool.


Okay, I'm willing to agree that there is definately some misandry within portions of the feminist movement, and conspiricy theories of some evil patriachy is stupid, but there is definately a glass ceiling in the techie fields. It's possible to smash through it, but it often involves behaving like a raving b***h. It's getting better over time, but I still have to be a lot nastier then my male peers to get them to listen to me consistantly. It's really annoying, and it's turning me into Alice from Dilbert, which kind of freaky.



Griff
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23 May 2008, 7:32 am

Speckles wrote:
Griff wrote:
Men are psychologically vulnerable, and there are many "date rape" situations in which the male is as much a victim as his partner. It is nonsense to assume that you have to lay your hands on a person in order to violate him or her. It's a murky issue, but it is one that needs to be addressed. I am very tired of living in society in which men are made out to be either ogres or morons. Misandry is every bit as evil as misogyny.

Furthermore, I am sickened that some nonexistent "glass ceiling" is held responsible for men's advantages in such fields as engineering. We don't purposely exclude women from entering the field, but every single time the subject comes up, I hear so-called "feminists" whining and moaning about the "glass ceiling." I sympathize with their cause where it is meaningful, but it is both ridiculous and reprehensible to blame some conspiracy on something that is more than likely rooted in biology. Should I blame feminists for the greater prevalence of autism in males? Frankly, I think that modern Western feminists are a bunch of ignorant bitties who want to hold some made-up conspiracy responsible for every pissy problem in their entire lives. Rest assured, I support their cause whole-heartedly, but I find them embarrassing.

Once again, though, problems related to sexual and social misconduct are best remedied by relatively rigid egalitarianism. It is time-tested, and it has become one of our most important sociological tools. Unfortunately, social conservatives are too stupid to realize the true importance of this tool.


Okay, I'm willing to agree that there is definately some misandry within portions of the feminist movement, and conspiricy theories of some evil patriachy is stupid, but there is definately a glass ceiling in the techie fields. It's possible to smash through it, but it often involves behaving like a raving b***h. It's getting better over time, but I still have to be a lot nastier then my male peers to get them to listen to me consistantly. It's really annoying, and it's turning me into Alice from Dilbert, which kind of freaky.
Men do tend to have a higher level of natural aptitude in the field, though. Human sexual dimorphism actually does extend to cognitive abilities. The men you're working with are just not used to the idea of women being competent in the field, and it's really not their fault. They haven't been given any reason to be because, quite frankly, it's true.

Don't even try picking out some hidden agenda because it just ain't there.



Griff
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23 May 2008, 10:47 am

Khan_Sama wrote:
Men enforce it only in the KSA and Iran. Only these two countries. In countries with high illiteracy like Pakistan and India, many Muslim men force their women to wear the hijab, but they make up a minority. The hijab is basically very common in and around the Arabian peninsula, it gets rarer the further away from Mecca.
That is very interesting. I was unaware of this discrepency. So Iran and KSA are unique in actually making a habit of enforcing this thing. Also, it dilutes further from Mecca. I would like to further explore the sociological forces which may be responsible for this phenomenon.

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I'd like to point out that there are many Muslim feminists, particularly in the west, and most of them wear the hijab. I find it very strange, outside traditional Arabia and Iran, cacausian converts wear the hijab more than Muslims.
They don't take it for granted, or they would not have converted. This simply stands to reason. People who convert to Christianity can be just as goofy. I think it's a universal. Is it? I'm unsure. It seems to be. By the way, I'm judging from your tone that you realize I meant well, and suddenly I'm inclined to apologize for the dramatics. I think I have some PTSD from dealing with people who are disinterested in having a helpful conversation.

I am thinking that there were a few things that I did not quite understand about your culture. Disabuse me at your pleasure, ol' chap.

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I don't think any Muslim views it as a symbol of sexual submission. Iirc, Condoleeza Rice, just a little after the start of the Iraq war, met a group of women in the KSA, and said that it is her hope that America can help in liberating them, to which she got angry replies. To make it clear, they just meant "please don't screw around with our religion". Seriously, we're not forcing your women to wear the hijab. Why must you all force our women to not wear theirs?
Concealed weapons. You may have more chance of being struck by lightening than even witnessing a school shooting, but the schools are rabidly paranoid due to a few notorious incidents. I think it comes from Americans having a few loose wires in their heads. Kuh-fu-soo say, "Do not attribute to discrimination what more likely emerges from some goofy, undereducated b***h having a corncob up her butt."

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I have taken India as an example as I live here, I'm not comparing it to a western democracy. This topic has nothing to do with any politics. Sure, casteism is a problem in the rural areas, a big problem, but that has nothing to do with the topic. Muslims are a minority here. We make 15% of the population. The Hijab is worn by less than 15% of Muslim women here. The saree is the most popular dress for women, which reveals many parts of the body.
A minority in a country so densely populated still makes you a sizable population, I would figure.

By the way, if I recall correctly, many Bosnian women don't give a hoo-hah about Shariah Law, and they have their own equivalent of Prada there. I knew a young woman from there, once.

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I would like to make it clear, premarital sex is a very big sin in Islam. We believe that sex must be limited inside the institution called marriage, and that a woman must look beautiful only for her husband and nobody else (and vice-versa, thus Muslim men are encouraged to grow beards).
Oh, marriage has lost much of its seriousness here in many parts of the US, and people wonder why they're suffering from alarming rates of clinical depression. Oh, perhaps it arises from us being a culture that is incapable of planning ahead for anything, doesn't bother to think decisions through, upholds impulse and whim above all mores, and seems to think that self-control is a sin. Do you think that might have something to do with it? Eh? Perhaps it's because we're in a culture that prioritizes social bullying leaps and bounds over anything seriously useful? Oh, don't buy anything I say, though. I'm just suggesting that someone should take responsibility somewhere along the line. It's none of my business. Noooooo. It's always someone else's business than Griff's business.

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Lol, you typed this as if all Muslims are a bunch of uneducated village folk.
Do excuse me. I should have known better than this.

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I'd like to point out that in the hijabi areas, ie, the Arabian peninsula, most of these countries are well developed countries with high literacy rates, and a high standard of living.
Isn't Saudi Arabia pretty notorious for human rights violations? I'm uncertain. You would know more about it than myself. Why are women there not allowed to drive? Wouldn't this make life abnormally difficult for single mothers or women who lack any interest in marriage, sex, or family?

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How can you say that the hijab will ever fail when your own people are converting and wearing it? :lol:
Come off it. Christians are just as shrill in boasting of how many people they've converted to Christianity. Everywhere I go, I see some plaque or other proclaiming how some foreigner converted to Christianity during a "tent revival" and became popular, successful, and well-liked. Furthermore, my grandmother regularly reminds me that she is going to have a nice house and a beautiful automobile when she gets to Heaven. My, what a giving fellow! You'd think he was Santa Claus! Oh, dude, if you had been around some of the shallow, foolish swill that I have always up-put with, then you would understand some of my reflexive attitudes toward religion. I wouldn't touch it with a ten-foot pole. It's materialistic poison.

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I don't really know why you think the burqa is a sexual fetish. Its purpose is completely the opposite of that.
The burqa is one thing. Structuring a society around imaginary gender roles suggests something amiss as far as I can understand.

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Dude, I'm a former atheist. I know many atheists. Some good, some bad. Just like every other community. There's no difference whether you're atheist or Muslim or Christian or Jew etc. There are good things and bad things about everyone. To say that my religious beliefs are misguided and that you're well-behaved is rather hypocritical of you. A well behaved person won't insult another person while arguing against their views.
Then, from henceforth, I will be your pupil in all things Islam. It doesn't pay for me to comment on things when I don't really know anything about them. It really defeats the purpose of me doing so, I think. The only thing that I know of Islam is the testimony of a young Bosnian lass (apparently upper-middle class, since she travelled extensively) who loved reminding people of how amusing she found Western perceptions of Bosnia and the Middle East.



slowmutant
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27 May 2008, 11:31 am

Griff wrote:
Having them neutered, perhaps?


Naw, that wouldn't work. How about gender reassignments, Griff?