Atheist faith

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Truth makes me feel like s**t. But I love it anyway and like a moth to a flame, I'll die seeking the light. I don't want to be a moth anyhow.

Ironically.. the atheist shares the same faith of the christian.. who believes the Bible stories are intended to be read literally.

Apparently.. the atheist believes this too.

The literal christian reads a mythological account.. and says.. "It's a miracle.. and God is obviously a supernatural being.

The atheist take the position of not believing in miracles.. or supernatural beings.. based also on literal reading.

In this sense both are in error.


Because there are neither miracles nor supernatural beings in the Bible.. only mythological accounts of what is occurring spiritually.. in the writers hearts and minds.

And.. here is some evidence.. that Jesus calming the storm.. was not intended to be understood literally.

First the “miracle”

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"And when he got aboard a boat, his disciples followed him. Now, look! a great agitation arose in the sea, so that the boat was being covered by the waves; he, however, was sleeping. And they came and woke him up, saying: "Lord, save us, we are about to perish! "

But he said to them: "Why are you fainthearted, you with little faith?" Then, getting up, HE REBUKED THE WINDS AND THE SEA, AND A CALM SET IN. So the men became amazed and said: "What sort of person is this, that even the winds and the sea obey him?" - Matthew 8:23

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If the winds and the sea.. literally obeyed Jesus.. then that would be contrary to nature.. and this would imply that God was a supernatural being.

However.. if this story is encrypted as an allegory.. which it is..

Then it isn’t contrary to nature at all..

There is nothing supernatural about it. Even today we use the same metaphorical language.. "wind".. towards those whose words have no staying power.. or substance.. like the words our leaders often use.

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“How long will you keep uttering these things, When the sayings of your mouth are but a powerful wind?” - Job 8:2

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The words of those in power.. are for most part.. wind.. and this is what the word wind means.. in the Bible.. in this context……... windy words.

According to the allegory..

Jesus rebuked the wind.. and the sea became calm.

This verse from the Psalms.. clearly explains what the miracle story really means..

Compare it to the miracle account in Matthew 8:23 for verification.

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“He is stilling the noise of the seas, The noise of their waves and the turmoil of the national groups. He causes the windstorm to stand at a calm, So that the waves of the sea keep quiet.”

Psalms 65:7

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The sea represents the collective human spirit.. like waves.. those in power are higher than the rest of us.. this.. along with hysterical nationalism.. causes unrest discontent.. conflicts.. even wars.

The words of Jesus were intended to bring peace to the world.. they pull down those in power.. as Jesus symbolically walks over them (walking on the sea) with his words.. putting them beneath his shoes.. so to speak.

Then.. there’s the real meaning.. of the passage..

"HE REBUKED THE WINDS AND THE SEA, AND A CALM SET IN".

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"The national groups themselves will make a din just like the noise of many waters. And He will certainly REBUKE IT, and it must flee far away and be chased like the chaff of the mountains before a wind and like a thistle whirl before a storm wind.

But the wicked are like the sea that is being tossed, when it is unable to calm down, the waters of which keep tossing up seaweed and mire. There is no peace," my God has said, "for the wicked ones.

Isaiah 17:12

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Hence.. it is not a miracle in any physical sense..

The story simply has a cryptic meaning.

So there is nothing supernatural to put faith in..

And nothing supernatural to disbelieve in..

Jesus calming the storm simply has a hidden message.

Which undermines what both christians and atheists believe.

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"They have multiplied altars in order to sin. I proceeded to write for them many things of my Law; Just like something strange they have been accounted. THE NATIONS ARE FEEDING ON WIND and chasing after the east wind all day long. Lying and despoiling are what they multiply. And a covenant among men they conclude. They became satisfied and their heart began to be exalted. That is why they forgot me."

Isaiah 57:2

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What is the object of atheist faith?

Humanity itself?

That sounds nice until remember that faith is about not needing to know all the answers, not needing to understand, not asking questions, simply trusting to "whatever it is", in this case humanity.

And I hadn't noticed this attitude, ( towards humanity anyway), being very prevalent amongst atheists, those on WP anyway.

I was wondering whether doubt and faith are rather like right and left wing politics; the most extreme versions, ( fascism and communism in the case of L and R wing politics ), are almost identical. Both faith and doubt, when taken to extremes, not balanced/tempered by any of the other quality, are "closed"/shut off, whereas the mixture of the two is one of dialogue, openness.

Gollum, in The Lord of the Rings, is what chronic profound doubt unaccompanied by faith looks like. For most of the mission to destroy the ring Frodo's companion/servant, Sam, is enough "doubt" to balance his faith, but as Frodo's faith becomes more extreme in order to bear the burden, he reaches a point where only the extreme doubt of Gollum is enough to balance it and achieve the goal.

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I agree. Even funnier is when atheists believe that a historical Jesus existed, because they are taking the Gospels literally.

But I think it is important to distinguish between faith and belief. The above example is a question of belief, based, in the christian's case, on faith in god/the bible as word of god. I wonder whether the atheist's belief is based on faith in the written word.

Faith is a specific mental act in which stop asking questions, stop requiring complete or logical understanding or knowledge of something; a mental act carried out in order to believe/act in some way which would be/might seem impossible if insisted on having a logical explanation/justification/support for every aspect of it.

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If the term atheist excludes not only those who believe in an absolute god, or gods in general, but also people who have pagan beliefs, spiritualities involving the paranormal, anism, etc, etc, then I think that what atheists have faith in is objectivity.

So ignore my earlier remarks about atheism being extreme doubt.
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Last edited by ouinon on 17 Oct 2008, 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

This was also a question that interested me.. so I did some research... a few years ago.

Basically.. it is the same as what the bible is teaching..

Yep... strange but true..


The evidence speaks for itself..

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Atheist Mission Statement.. originating from..

http://www.atheists.org/

"Your petitioners are Atheists, and they define their lifestyle as follows.

"An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now -- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, but that he must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment."


Having read the American Atheists mission statement.. I did e-mail them a couple of times.. and invited them to discuss but they declined.... I wonder why.

So I decided to publish my argument anyway.. on the net.

Below.. is a copy of some issues I attempted to raise with them.. concerning their mission statement..

Taking it point by point..

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1. An Atheist loves himself and his fellow man instead of a god.

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Correspondingly . . the Bible says:

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“You must not take vengeance nor have a grudge against the sons of your people; and you must love your fellow as yourself.” -Leviticus 19:18

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2. An Atheist accepts that heaven is something for which we should work now -- here on earth -- for all men together to enjoy.

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And.. Jesus taught..

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“The Kingdom of heaven is spread upon the surface of the Earth.. yet men do not see it.” - Jesus - Gospel of Thomas

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3. An Atheist accepts that he can get no help through prayer, . . .

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The prophets also saw the people's prayers as worthless too...

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“And when you spread out your palms, I hide my eyes from you. Even though you make many prayers, I am not listening; with bloodshed your very hands have become filled.” - Isaiah 1:15

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”...but that an atheist must find in himself the inner conviction and strength to meet life, to grapple with it, to subdue it and to enjoy it.”

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However.. the Bible teaches the need for us to have inner conviction also...

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"Why do you not judge also for yourselves what is righteous?” - Luke 12:57

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4. An Atheist accepts that only in a knowledge of himself and a knowledge of his fellow man can he find the understanding that will help to a life of fulfillment."

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If so..then.. it seems that the atheist is indeed.. deeply religious.. since the purpose of religion is to give us the knowledge to link back to who we REALLY are.*

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"Since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion.. examine yourself! - Examine yourself.. so that you may understand who you are...

And you will be called the one who knows themself!

For whoever has not know themself.. has known nothing. But whoever has known themself.. has simutaniously achieved knowledge of the depth of the ALL!" - Jesus - Thomas the Contender

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And.. in the Book of Psalms.. David explains that the knowledge of God.. is not so far from us..

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“They have not known, and they do not understand; In darkness they keep walking about; All the foundations of the earth are made to totter.I myself have said, 'You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.” - Psalms 82:5

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The point I am demonstrating here is.. that the labels that we hang on ourselves are just meaningless.

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Last edited by Accelerator on 17 Oct 2008, 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Some labels are meaningless, while other have great meaning. If you're trying to get me to give up God and instead put my worship in mortal men ... no.

You sure do have a silver tongue, I'll give you that.

I would give the credit to my teachers..

All I have is a good memory..

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"The Sovereign Lord God himself has given me the tongue of the taught ones, that I may know how to answer the tired one with a word. He awakens morning by morning; he awakens my ear to hear like the taught ones.

The Sovereign Lord God himself has opened my ear, and I, for my part, was not rebellious. I did not turn in the opposite direction. The One declaring me righteous is near. Who can contend with me? Let us stand up together. who is my judicial antagonist? Let him approach me. Who is there that can pronounce me wicked?"

"And God shall put words in my mouth in order to plant the heavens and lay the foundation of the earth."

“The glory of God is the keeping of a matter secret, and the glory of kings is the searching through a matter.”

“Let there be a removing of scummy dross from the silver, and all of it will come forth refined.”

Isaiah 50:4 + 51:16 + Proverbs 25:2 + 25.4

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Last edited by Accelerator on 17 Oct 2008, 1:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Who the hell puts their worship in men? In general Atheists lack worship, we're not religious.

And that is exactly what I expect of you. I do not trust Accelerator. Others have tried to lead me down a dark way before, but my discernment prevails. If you need to quote scripture to make each of your points, I'm already wary of you.

Well, perhaps must do, and this is why I believe it would be the case, as the lack of belief in God and in religion from an atheist, they could assume, from historical grounds, that the books that conform the Bible would have been intended to be taken literal somehow, at the time when they were written and it will make very much sense, considering how that society and culture were living thousands of years ago.

Really, one could argue that the Bible was intended for the people who lived at the time, they were writing, influenced by their own social and cultural point of views, nothing to do with our contemporary way of life and morality views, so I can say that after taking this into account, the majority of books of the Bible would have to be intended to be taken literal, except perhaps for parts from the books of Daniel and Revelations, as they use metaphors must, not to say that in the other books there are some kind of metaphors now and there used, nevertheless, the interpretation would have to be intended for how things worked and be seen in those particular periods of time, how it would work, that said, not too metaphorical as it can be taken currently.

And well, atheists believe the Bible being written by men with the inspiration from men and perhaps nature or whatever as any other literary work.

(Sigh)....And I thought.. by now.. we were friends..

Now you've gone and spoilt my day...

After all our intimate conversations together..

Have I ever told a lie..?

(He says.. with tears running down his cheeks)

What I'm quoting is true......

Oh yea of little faith..............

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“For the vision is for the appointed time, and it keeps panting on to the end, and it will not tell a lie; for it will without fail come true. It will not be too late.

And for its part it jeers kings themselves, and high officials are something laughable to it.”

Habakkuk 2:3

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The true vision being.. (in 5 parts)

Part 1 - The Truth
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LBL1QzH0HwQ


Part 2 - The Little Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8stB62P-Lg


Part 3 - The Dream
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E01ZbiCUnlo


Part 4 - Heaven And The Fall of Mankind
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JllO5SXH ... re=related


Part 5 - The New Dawn
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxxmqdAw ... re=related

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Um, no Atheist believes the Bible's stories are intended to be taken literately, we're just pissed off at how literately our ignorant counterparts do take them.

I wonder how many Atheists have studied the bible or any other religious texts. Mythology is an awesome portrayal of the archetypes and facets of the human individual. To just dismiss the gods and goddesses as superstition is missing the whole point because you took it literally. Sure, if you take it all literally, it makes no sense. That is why the virtues are superior to our ordinary perception.

Check out this discussion for a different perspective.

http://indigosociety.com/human-brain-filter-t2580.html

I've read mythology, I'm not arguing against the way it's written and I wouldn't deny some of it is interesting. What I am arguing is against the main things religious people do take literately, like the supernatural parts that people who follow the religion believe. No Atheist looks at it literately though to argue against someone who does for sake of argument you have to read it like they do to understand their viewpoint.

EDIT: Also I forgot to add this but Accelerator's argument is invalid that Atheists do not believe in the supernatural or miracles based on literal reading. We don't based on evidence, no evidence or convincing signs point to miracles and the supernatural existing therefore we don't believe.