Do you believe in God?

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Then you're being intellectually dishonest if you claim that science has definitively ruled out any kind of multiverse.

All you have to say that you have faith that there is a God. I will accept that, no questions asked.

No "proof" needed--because no objective, tangible "proof" is possible.

If there was tangible "proof," we wouldn't be having this discussion.

I, myself, despite many, many arguments presented to the contrary, still have no faith in the existence of God.

I do not think he means to say that the multiverse or many worlds or inflationary models, etc... have been ruled out, rather it is that he is aware of competing models, which he feels, from his background and understanding, make those multiverse scenarios less probable (given what we 'know' now and what our current "favorite" models predict). Again, no one is dealing in absolutes and certainty here. (at least I hope.)

Also... as an aside... what you just said to him regarding science not ruling out the possibility of a multiverse is a restatement of the very attitude that I have been trying to help you to understand concerning the relationship between the philosophical concept of God (leaving behind any specific religious rituals, doctrines, or cultural artifacts) and the great enterprise of science. God and the multiverse are both concepts that consist in words strung together in interlocking networks to build models. Furthermore, models that involve multiverses are not, explicitly at least, incompatible with the existence of God..... so that they are not even competing explanations necessarily (and if they are then I would hear elaborations on that necessary* incompatibility.)

Nothing is incompatible with god, since it's a concept one can change on the spot to suit your whims. It is a chimera. It can be whatever you want it to be. That's also why it's not a rational proposition.

So I don't care if god is compatible with this or that theory, why invent one in the first place?

If no proof is possible, why does anyone believe it? (I have a less stringent standard of just evidence, not proof).

And that is completely fine.

None or millions.
I've never seen just one of anything.

I don't know how or why or in what way God created the universe, us, and everything else and I don't dispute the evidence of science or anything. I was an atheist for a very long time. All I can say is that believing in God for me was an awakening from a long sleep. I cannot prove it at all and have intention of doing so. I didn't expect to become a believer,

He showed himself to me as an epiphany. First that empiricism is not the beginning and end of all knowledge and second that this world of matter and energy is an illusion, just the surface level, and that there is a higher Truth out there that we can't experience with our senses or tools, nor should we.

Chris Hitchens once said that that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence and to that I say, "Fine. Dismiss it then. Its not for you. And that is okay."

All right....the probability seems to be that The Big Bang didn't occur via pure chance.

The question then becomes: What sort of "force" instigated the Big Bang? What is the probability that this "force" was a sentient Supreme Being who know what he/she/it was doing when it was being done?

All this, of course, is predicated upon whether a "Big Bang" actually occurred.

The fact that there exists a cosmic microwave background means that the Big Bang theory is one of the most solid scientific facts.

Last edited by Deltaville on 22 Apr 2016, 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

Maybe the "benevolence" arose from some sort of "physics" harmony, which arose from the initial "act" which set in motion all which subsequently followed.

(i.e., arising from a "desire," on the part of the "force," to maintain its existence).

"Desire" is in quotes because the "force" need not be aware of what it is "desiring."

There is absolutely zero scientific evidence that attests to the notion that these conditions are required by a matter of necessity.

On a side note, there are more zeros in 10^10^123 than there are subatomic particles in the whole universe.

Indeed, 'if you don't want God, you better have a multiverse!' - Bernard Carr

And 'If you discovered a really impressive fine-tuning ... I think you'd really be left with only two explanations: a benevolent designer or a multiverse.' - Steven Weinberg, outspoken Atheist

Both these quotes came before Penrose calculated the result.

I am dying to hear how AspE will manage to dig his way out of this one.

Really, for me it seems strange how much many atheists I talk to want there to be no God. Its like all things being equal they prefer not to believe in God. I find this to be perplexing. Again, it is as though they have some notion of God that is vastly different from my own. Often, they accuse theists of believing in God as a form of wish fulfillment... basing their belief in some Freudian reductionist deeply rooted emotional need for a cosmic "Father/Mother." Well, as John Lennox points out, this argument can be turned around and it could be "speculated" that the atheist bases their unbelief in a deeply rooted emotional need to escape the consequences of the existence of God. Although we reject this type of logic in the first, we find that all too often the atheist is saddled with some emotional scars based on their experience negative experiences with religion. Some people do not want God to exist because their conception of God is one of an "evil" God, because of the abuse and misuse of religions throughout the history of the world and in contemporary culture. These people sometimes say that not only does God not exist, but they sincerely hope that God does not exist. These are the people who I personally feel compelled to reach out to the most, because they need the "good news" that God not only does exist, but God loves each one of us individually.

"Perhaps the best argument in favor of the thesis that the Big Bang supports theism is the obvious unease with which it is greeted by some atheist physicists.." - Chris Isham, Quantum Cosmologist

" Many people do not like the idea that time has a beginning, probably because it smacks of divine intervention.." - Stephan Hawking (a pseudo-intellectual by the way, see my thread 'Deltaville's brief history..')

Last edited by Deltaville on 22 Apr 2016, 9:22 am, edited 2 times in total.