Roe v. Wade is history

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And even if they weren't, their continued existence doesn't put a woman's health and life at risk. An embryo's/fetus' continued existence inside a woman does. If the woman's fine with it then all good, but if not, she needs to have a right to protect herself.

Yeah, but don’t forget human slavery was constitutional at one point. And majorities can do utterly insane things like adding a prohibition amendment to the constitution. Federal regulation of narcotics followed soon after the fall of prohibition, but at least we learned enough lessons not to make it an amendment.

Majority rule is problematic since there’s a tendency towards mass hysteria. Majority rule also tends towards collectivism or statism. Majority rule tends to hurt individual freedom.

I tend to favor objectivism, which traditionally advocates for abortion. Banning abortion, according to this view, is not about concern for women. Banning abortion is government intrusion into any person’s autonomy.

The majority of Americans don’t see it this way. Most Americans are going to view it as one victim class in conflict with another. It’s not about the power of government to intrude on bodily autonomy or privacy—it’s about promoting feminism versus the rights of the unborn. And this is EASILY proven. You have a massive federal bureaucracy that regulates pretty much every aspect of your life. If you want bans off our bodies, then stop regulating narcotics, stop funding monopolies, open our borders, and stop talking about gun violence. As long as we grant government the right to regulate anything, personal or business, you must accept that the government can ban narcotics and abortions. So at the root of the problem is that abortion is mainly an issue of feminism that doesn’t really concern anyone else. The real debate happening in America is whether the unborn have any rights or have anyone to speak up for them when they have no voice to speak for themselves. Ultimately it’s a battle for which victim class deserves the most pity—women who argue oppression and patriarchy, or the unborn who fall victim to their feminist oppressors? It is a fact that women in America enjoy an elevated status that affords them special treatment, like sexual harassment accusations that can ruin careers before the truth can be determined through due process. Large businesses can be sued for firing women after having babies. Businesses are under pressure to close the income gap between men and women, making salary a matter of gender rather than performance. So the feminist message in America is almost totally myth. Yes, I agree women deserve better treatment than they get. No, women as individuals don’t have fewer opportunities/rights as anyone else. Relating it to abortion—men already lack the right to kill babies, and the decision to kill a baby often denies fathers any legitimate interest they may have in the child. So the victim class struggle is entirely one-sided. Feminist hypocrisy is evident by how they claim oppression, yet persist themselves in being oppressors.

To summarize: Women MUST be allowed abortion because they are WOMEN, not because they are individuals guaranteed freedom.

The flaw in classic objectivist thinking is that they have fallen into the “bans off our bodies” trap that has compromised their objectivity. It’s not bans off OUR bodies. It’s bans off ALL bodies. Objectivists struggle to understand the logical conflict between the rights of all people, men as well as women, to do what they want with their bodies and the rights of ALL individuals to life (the cornerstone of objectivist philosophy) including unborn individuals. American justice has always sought to ensure that justice is FAIR and that no remedy for an injury be disproportionate to the nature of that injury. Or replace remedy and injury with punishment and crime. Whichever is appropriate. Kidnappers and racists don’t get the death penalty. What did the baby do to deserve getting killed?

Getting back to the point of majority rule—the majority of Americans are emotionally invested in the abortion debate and get caught up in who is oppressed more and who is entitled to what. The majority are incapable of forming a logical conclusion to the issue, and the issue is largely a product of liberal culture. Lawyers, otoh, are schooled in logic and are expected to debate the logical sensibility of issues that affect people. Whether congressman choose to be logical or not is another matter, and I don’t trust politicians connected with businesses for money and victim classes for votes to make the best decisions on my behalf. Majority rule can make life hell when popular opinion can turn on a dime (like prohibition), politicians can be bribed, and not even judges can be completely trusted. The hope is that the majority elects people they trust, that the majority communicates their wishes to their reps, their reps debate the will of the people, that popular interest is weighed against the interest of the state, state interest is weighed against the interest of the nation, and national interest is weighed against wisdom.

How it actually happens? Pols are elected by people along party lines by selling people on a party agenda, pols are bribed or influenced by businesses and party machines to obtain special favors, bills pass to favor party interest rather than state interest, signed into law according to party interest rather than national interest, often disregarding majority interest, and supported by a court based on a long-standing party interest spanning a few decades.

Welcome to America.

That’s almost entirely a myth. Current medical practice makes pregnancy and delivery easily survivable in almost every situation. Doctors managed to save both my wife and oldest daughter. They delivered my youngest daughter by section while discussing college basketball. So the risk to mother is entirely a myth unless you show me evidence otherwise. Heck, I’ll do it for you: ectopic pregnancies almost never make it to term, almost always rupture or turn septic, and almost certainly kill the mother if she attempts to make it to term.

Preeclampsia is extremely risky, requires constant monitoring. It is survivable, but is it worth the risk? That can only be answered by parents who have to endure it.

What if the baby dies in the womb or cannot survive outside the womb? That’s a tough one. But certainly a parent should have the right to medical options when there is no point in continuing the pregnancy.

The girl is very young, is the victim of abuse/rape? Well, that genuinely IS an issue for bodily autonomy and parents making the best decisions on behalf of their children. But to justify killing a baby, the abuser must be brought to justice. I don’t waiting for a conviction is necessary since it is possible to report a crime early and have an abortion immediately when a baby is detected—taking a test once a week and medically confirmed immediately after the first positive home test. That’s reasonable. I don’t LIKE the idea of destroying ANY child for ANY reason since it isn’t the fault of the child that it exists under unfortunate circumstances. But to decide to destroy a life must be a rational one, not simply a matter of wanting the pleasure of sex and none of the consequences. That can be avoided. So unless rape or abuse is the cause, conception is a choice.

Shocking statement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maternal_mortality_in_the_United_States

For example, this complication is almost considered to have no possibility of survival.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amniotic_fluid_embolism


In addition, no death does not mean no other physical injury.
for example:
https://www.jogc.com/article/S1701-2163(20)30683-6/fulltext

The smaller physique and rounder skull of East Asians make it easy to tear the birth canal during delivery, so most of them need Episiotomy, that is, cutting the vaginal orifice. The implementation rate of this operation in Taiwan is more than 90%, and about 50% in Chinese Mainland.
White women may not suffer so much from childbirth in a statistical sense, while East Asian women do not.
There is no shortage of East Asian ethnic in the United States.

Here's some data

Here's some more

And here!

Of course, some might call those numbers low, but they aren't. Every woman's life should count, and they should have the choice in if they want to risk it or not.

Plus, these statistics are only talking about deaths. Other health problems aren't taken in to account in these. Also, childbirth can be a very traumatic experience even if the child is wanted, so even if everything goes well physically, the trauma that having to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term and being forced to give birth could cause is certainly no joke.

Let's not forget about Domestic Violence.







VIOLENCE INFO










HERE






AND HERE :

Pregnant women in the United States die by homicide more often than they die of pregnancy-related causes:


US women who are pregnant or were pregnant in the past 42 days (the post-partum period) die by homicide at more than twice the rate that they die of bleeding or placental disorders — the leading causes of what are usually classified as pregnancy-related deaths. Also, becoming pregnant increases the risk of death by homicide: between the ages of 10 and 44 years, women who are pregnant or had their pregnancy end in the past year are killed at a rate 16% higher than are women who are not pregnant.


AND AGAIN :

This study ^, written by researchers at Tulane University, found that people who are pregnant or in the postpartum period are twice as likely to die by homicide than any other leading cause of maternal mortality. Using data from the National Center for Health Statistics from 2018 and 2019, the study’s authors determined that about two-thirds of the incidents occurred at home. Although decades of research (including a Washington Post investigation), have shown that pregnant people face a heightened risk of violence, this study is the first to include death records from every state in the country.

Wallace’s study “is the first to provide truly nationally representative estimates of the rate of pregnancy-associated homicide victimization."

Our overall main finding was that homicide is more common among pregnant postpartum women, compared to nonpregnant, non-postpartum women,” Wallace said. “And that's particularly true for Black women, when we stratify by race, and for young women."


Also, these:

Not shocking at all. Look at your own numbers! Half of deaths are PREVENTABLE, what you said at one point. So prevent them! You don’t need abortion for that.

Other numbers you quoted concern events that are extremely rare to be meaningfully non-existent.

The few large-number figures aren’t even relevant. Episiotomy is a procedure that is done to prevent irregular tearing so that any damage that occurs is easy for doctors to repair. The higher incidence in one country versus another reflects a higher concern about healing properly.

And all of that reflects the overall high standard of care for mothers and and improved outcomes. That means that abortion is largely antiquated and unnecessary.

Where abortion DOES save the life of the mother and IS necessary isn’t nearly so common. I have no argument that abortion ever be taken completely off the table, but by far where it is necessary is the exception rather than the rule.

That just proves my point. In fact, one source reports a DECREASE in maternal mortality. To hear some talk about it, you’d think women are falling down dead in the street from carrying babies. Mortality more often occurs, WHEN it occurs, to complications that arise some time after delivery (within, roughly, about a month or so), and quite often due to a pre-existing condition.

The absolute certainty that babies kill mothers is a myth, and the numbers reflect that. I have NEVER denied that pregnancy carries a risk nor that delivery is traumatic. That’s been known throughout history. But it is easily survivable, and even more so with advanced care. If the numbers are to be believed, the United States ranks lowest compared to some other countries, right? That means even at the worst, things are still looking pretty good for mothers.

Of course I agree that every life is important. But that means every life of every baby is important to. MOST women will survive long after childbirth. EVERY successful abortion kills a baby. Botched abortions resulting in live birth are the exception rather than the rule. So the solution isn’t more abortions, but rather to continue improving the standard for medical care of mothers.

Has nothing to do with babies killing mothers. How about men just, like, NOT abuse women? Round up all the male pieces of human excrement that beat up or kill women, tie them to a stake in the town square, and light ‘em up? Let the smell of smoke and burning human flesh send a message to all men who beat up and kill women this is what they get.

Killing babies doesn’t address the problem of men abusing women.

Also…the tone I get from this is every time a pregnant mother dies it’s from getting beat up by a partner. This isn’t objectively true. Half of domestic abuse starts with an unwanted pregnancy—ok, sure. Exactly how many domestic abusers are out there? Does that reflect every single relationship? Every single unwanted pregnancy, even? If this isn’t even that common, then, yeah, it’s a myth.

It’s not a myth that it happens. I know that. The myth is how significant this is towards justifying killing babies. Here, the problem isn’t even the baby. It’s men who hurt women. You need to fix men, not babies. A hot iron up the @$$ and a colostomy bag for the rest of his life could be a good start.

Half of the deaths can be avoided, so
A. And somehow the United States has no intention to start doing even as well as other developed countries in this regard? Half the deaths can be prevented, which means how bad the United States is doing, rather than how unimportant death is. Somehow you claim that this problem can be considered obsolete?
B. The woman in other half is bound to die is not human.
C. The maternal mortality rate of blacks in the United States is three times that of whites.

Somehow, these risks are considered to be what you can help the parties decide.
Somehow, you think that women who are too poor to have abortions abroad can get high-quality medical services in the United States.


I have just listed one of the most famous dangerous situations. When it doesn't happen to an individual, the probability is 0. If it happens, the probability is 100%. Will you be responsible for their death?


About non fatal pain, I mean imagine you need to cut and sew your penis for this? Will you be happy with this quality care?
This is just a necessary choice to avoid greater damage. Others are worse.

However, US is only compared to other developed countries. More developing countries around the world are pretty bad here.
You should probably visit older women with prolapsed uterus. They appeared in large numbers in China's poor previous generation. Parts of the uteru may accidentally fall out of the body while they are working, so that they need to stop work and stuff the uteru back into the body. And these are just the ones that survived. Women who die in childbirth no longer leave a voice.
More generally, many middle-aged women who have given birth will be incontinent due to sneezing.

If want to fix mother and infant mortality rate in US, banning abortion in not the answer. Fix the cost of healthcare. It must be affordable. With affordable healthcare women won't be forced to leave the hospital the day after they give birth. Every woman should be entitled to maternity leave without loss of pay or job. No woman should be required to give birth, get kicked out of the hospital the next day and then start work the day after that. Even a week after giving birth is too soon to return to work, but many women to not have this luxury.

The US fails its mothers and women in many ways. The focus should shifted on fixing real issues instead of these wedge issues that in the end are more divisive and will cause more problems than solve anything.

Who says the US has no such intention? I think the goal of medicine is to always improve outcomes by learning new things and implement procedures and standards. So, the problem is not a matter of the US falling behind other countries, because the level of care is still competitive with other countries if not on par with them. It’s a matter of whether people are taking advantage of care they have access to. For different reasons, this impacts the poorest communities the most.

But the solution is getting them to the doctor, not making them get abortions.


Ok, this doesn’t seem to make any sense. Clarify, please?


Has to do with, as Isabella mentioned, possibly domestic violence, and otherwise to complications aggravated by gestation and delivery. These are issues that are almost entirely preventable. Poor communities, especially predominantly black communities, are susceptible to health issues, obesity, diabetes, high blood pressure, and single parenthood frequently owing to underage abuse, incest, and so forth. So why should abortion be the immediate solution when black communities are better served by improving health outcomes for all stakeholders, not just pregnant girls and women? And why don't black communities make better use of health services? You have the markets for low income families, Medicaid for the poorest and the unemployed, and even if you are unable to get help, hospitals can't deny anyone emergency services. And when medical bills get sent to collections, exactly how do they intend to extract money from people who neither have money nor any means to get it?

And that means this isn't an issue for killing babies. You can't kill an employer for not firing you, you parents for not being rich, you university profs for not giving you the right skills. Killing babies is just a way to carry out a death sentence on someone when carrying it out on others isn't considered justifiable. Why not just hold others accountable for their failures? Parents who don't monitor children’s nutrition and allow their kids to develop obesity, diabetes, and hypertension before they are teens? Or supervise them around other kids who enable promiscuity? Or refuse to charge relatives and trusted caregivers when they sexually abuse them? How about empowering law enforcement and the justice system to make penalties for rape among the severest you can receive, not even a full step down from murder and violent crime? If pregnancy is an issue because of failures in the system, then DEAL WITH THE SYSTEM.

Fix the system, first of all. Simple as that. Enforce the law. The problem with abortion in rape cases is still punishing the baby for its circumstances. But as long as the rapist is held accountable, as long as rape is reported IMMEDIATELY and everything is done early on to prevent pregnancy, it’s easier to justify abortion at the earliest stages. If the issue is rape, abusing positions of trust and authority, inappropriate behavior among underaged children, then address that. If it’s poor health habits, address that. I’m not going to argue against abortion for rape and incest. I’m not going to argue against abortion to save a woman’s life. But when the rationale is mortality due to concerns that are external to pregnancy, such as the risk of abuse by a domestic partner, or health issues aggravated by pregnancy (which are most often treatable after delivery), then that doesn’t reasonably hold up. Those are the issues to be addressed, not the pregnancy itself.


People are called on to be responsible for their own circumstances. I don’t mean rape victims who never choose to be raped and impregnated. I mean circumstances leading to poor health outcomes—poor diet, sedentary lifestyle, refusal to engage health services, etc. So if this is the problem, the solution is to address obstacles to care, not knee-jerk resort to abortion.

It’s also interesting that the numbers reflect women who chose to carry their babies to term rather than specifically women who were denied abortion and went on to suffer negative outcomes.

Also interesting is that the rate of abortion failures do not remotely match maternal mortality. Sure, women who have successful abortions don't have to worry about pregnancy aggravating a pre-existing condition. But successful abortion always kills babies with botched procedures being the exception. Destruction of human life is almost always preventable.



Completely irrelevant and not even close to being the same thing. Penises don't deliver babies. But if that were case, who am I to argue? The closest any man can get is passing kidney stones. Sometimes that does require surgery. But beside the point. Tearing is often unavoidable, and it is common enough that OB’s will perform episiotomies as a preventative measure to prevent worse injury to the woman and shorten recovery time. Fixing a tear would be like stitching up shredded chicken, and I really don't think this is what women want.

Having an abortion to avoid episiotomy is not even remotely reasonable.

So, do people who don't support choice support public health care?

If people need and can get medical services, they will get them. They are not idiots.
The problem is that some people cannot. Before that, once you get pregnant accidentally, you have to give birth.


Half of the maternal deaths can be avoided. So what about the remaining half?


You'd better make sure that what you say is supported by "pro Life" supporters at the same time.
On the other hand, when these problems are still serious, and then suddenly, it is allowed to ban abortion directly?


Pure circular argument.
Non Christians do not share these ideas.
Areas where has never been Christian think the debate about "what fetus are human" is insane.


Reality doesn't happen in the order you designed, sir.
On the other hand, if this is something that needs to be pointed out, any contraceptive method has a failure rate.


People are not idiots, again. (I mean, most people)
Is the reason why people don't have a better life because they don't like it? They CANNT.


Circular argument, again.


I also wrote another part. This is only the most intuitive and rapid one among those reproductive injuries.
Of course, perineum incision is to avoid more serious injury, and even this relatively good choice is still terrible. This is what I emphasize.

Other injuries come from visceral damage later in pregnancy - how amazing how the fetus that constantly needs more space will make the viscera of pregnant women not in their original position - which is 100% avoided by abortion. Even if women finally think it's worth suffering these and having children, it also needs to be judged by their own state by themselves.
If you think laziness and unhealthy lifestyle are the causes of these injuries - these injuries occur most often in those who have to work hard.
And the poor who cannot get medical aid, what a shocking coincidence, must also work hard in the United States, which has not degenerated into socialism. At the same time, they happen to be prohibited from making their own decisions.

Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 23 Jul 2022, 11:31 am, edited 4 times in total.

Yes, they have decreased, but it still happens, and it can happen to any woman. Women should have the right to decide if they want to take the risk of being that one woman or not.

"Easily survivable", you say... tell that to everyone who've lost a woman from their family to that. There will always be those who don't survive, and it'll affect the family, the community... no woman should be forced to take the risk. It should be a choice.
Also, United States ranks low in maternity deaths if compared to third world countries. If compared to first world countries, which US is apparently supposed to be, US ranks pretty bad. The statistics are from 2000-2017, so I think they're still relevant.

MOST women, yeah... but that doesn't help those women who are the exceptions to the rule and die/get other bad lifelong consequences. And many women know they could end up being one of those women.

Dude, a personal antecdote about your wifes pregnancy going smooth is not proof that abortion is obsolete or that the readily availible information about pregnancy complications and women talking about their experiences with such things are myths. Tons and tons of doctors and medical professionals who care for pregnant women would disagree. I am glad hers went well that is nice, but its not the case for everyone who gets pregnant.

Also, its confusing you think women should be able to end a pregnancy if it becomes too dangerous or the fetus is unviable, but you support legislation that gets directly in the way of doctors being able to perform an abortion in a timely fashion for those women and instead can force them to wait till the complications start killing or causing them severe health problems to intervene where abortion is the treatment. Like that article you think is a myth talked about a woman who's pregnancy wasn't viable but was told to go home and wait for signs of infection, so she traveled to a legal abortion state to get it taken care of rather than waiting for infection.

And it is a religious belief that sex for pleasure and not conception is a sin or whatever, that should not be imposed on people who don't follow such beliefs. I mean what do you think condoms or birth control is for? Your suggestion is really for couples who don't want kids is to just never have sex? That is ridiculous.

https://www.cdc.gov/hearher/allysonfelix/index.html

I was in the hospital for 10 days after I gave birth to my son.

My doctor informed me later that my situation gave him anxiety and insomnia. He met with other top doctors in the field in order to keep my alive.

The reality is that many women who experience my particular complication, and many others, do not survive or experience lifelong negative effects which can shorten their lifespan and quality of life.

Some women’s lives would be seriously at risk if they went on to have other pregnancies after such a serious health scare.

The point is that the issue of health concerns is one reason among many why abortion should be accessible to people. It’s by far not the only reason, though. There are so many unique situations. No matter what, we all should have the right to bodily autonomy.

(I also experienced domestic violence during and after my pregnancy. Narcissists do not like it when they aren’t the center of attention. Women should be able to safely and confidentially get abortions. Ideally, there would be no domestic violence, health issues, or complicated situations, but we aren’t living in an ideal world.)