Roe v. Wade is history

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Same, not quite 'raised' in that my folks never said much either way but I went to a Catholic school that worked anti-choice themes into practically everything.

They were also big on seeing people rant against abortion as part of their yearly public speaking contests; the girl who made that her topic was allowed props (gore posters, figurines, etc) and didn't have a time limit. No one else was allowed props or allowed to go over 5 minutes.

Needless to say they played a huge role in defining my beliefs, just not the way they intended. Something about noticing brainwashing attempts makes one very unlikely to ever agree with the brainwashed position ever again.

I will concede, at least the Catholic church is consistently pro-life with their opposition to militarism and the death penalty. Most antichoicers are even more blatant hypocrites.

Because they can't afford it and most people make too much to get free healthcare from the state. At least here in Oregon it's pretty easy for families to get access to children's healthcare. But however individual healthcare is expensive to have the whole family on it and it's a joke if it will eat away your half of income you need to pay your bills and they don't pay you more.

People have to choose between paying their bills and paying for healthcare, they choose bills.

That’s true. They just love emotion-based arguments. It’s tricky for them when their beliefs are centered around religious dogma. Other people are not going to find it convincing unless they happen to have similar beliefs and one is “preaching to the choir.”



Agreed!

Nonsense. How many women dying in childbirth were seeking an abortion?


Culture is irrelevant. This assumes nothing more can be learned from science and study. Roe established the trimester standard for abortion regulation, Casey overturned the trimester in favor of viability. Part of Dobbs questioned whether viability could similarly be questioned given advances in science and medicine, with JWHO arguing that viability was set in stone and no further arguments could be made. Roe and Casey were overturned in part over the absurdity that there was nothing left to learn. And so if you expect to make progress towards abortion based on backwards thinking, you’ve got a steep hill to climb.

And culture doesn't not entirely agree with you. King David observed in a Psalm that God knew him inside the womb, so we know from ancient Israelite tradition that unborn babies are every bit as much people. So even the cultural assertion you made here is irrelevant.


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None.

Abortion is killing babies.

Helping car accident victims is saving lives.

Car accident victims DO accept the risk and responsibility for what happens while behind the wheel. If you cause the accident, your insurance pays for the other driver. Unless you have collision insurance, you're on the hook for your own vehicle. Your health insurance should cover what happens to your physical condition.

But with driving, you understand the risks and benefits of driving and accept that when you get on the road. The benefit is greater freedom and mobility. The risk is injury or death. It's acceptably low enough that people drive without incident all the time, and when the unexpected happens there are doctors to help and you have help repairing or replacing your car.

Getting an abortion is like getting neck surgery for having a flat tire, or writing off your vehicle as totaled for having minor crack in your windshield. It is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.

So what should women who have been pregnant accidentally but want to avoid this risk do?


You mean non-Christian areas have not developed natural sciences?
The fetus has many stages that make it more and more human, which is scientifically proven.
But when "enough human beings" is a philosophical question, there are at least four nodes that are fully scientifically justified. The traditional one in East Asia - born - is no less scientifically supported than others.

Why are things like what Israeli tradition or King David and God said related to non western regions? "Foreigners" is one culture?
There are more assertions in Pan Chinese cultural circles. Should we impose those on you?

No, getting an abortion is more like removing the nail from your flat tire and having it patched. It doesn't undo the initial incident but it resolves it permanently and is well within the rights of the owner of the tire.

The owner of the tire has no obligation to allow the nail to remain in their tire, even if they spent all f*****g morning driving over nails because they enjoy patching tires for fun. The nail has no rights or entitlements whatsoever when it comes to the tire.

I can't really speak to China’s situation. The debate here is about the SCOTUS Dobbs vs. JWHO decision, so I don't pretend to understand how this decision is relevant to Chinese interests unless China is seeking a means by which to make abortion illegal. Our governments and cultures are distinctively different, and I don't know how our debates are useful in another context.

America doesn't have only one race, does it?
Even without considering the Aboriginal tribes who have different views. What about newcomers and immigrant traditional communities?
This is not just the Chinese cultural circle. At least in China, female Muslims have complained more about such things in a statistical sense.

Regarding uterine prolapse I mentioned:

This actually applies to the poor everywhere.
It basically comes from visceral injury from pregnancy to late stage. The risk factor is overwork - which is exactly what the poor who cannot get enough medical services need to do.

This state of affairs is almost a loss of all human dignity.

Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 23 Jul 2022, 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Irrelevant. A baby is a baby regardless of developmental stage. And you're making the mistake of assuming there is nothing left to learn, that the science is fixed and cannot change.

The same DNA in a blastocyst is in an adult. If a blastocyst that came from two humans isn't human, what is it? A giraffe?

And nobody is imposing any culture on anyone else. You are just wrong to point out others cultures have different views. Very well, cultures outside east asia thousands of years ago considered unborn babies as people. I doubt they were unique in that respect.

It's not cultural. Culture is irrelevant. Are they human or not? If human, it is wrong to destroy them when doing so is deliberate and unjustifiable. I don't know how China defines murder, but this is how it is the US. How you run things in China is beyond the scope of what I’m discussing.

So you'll be advocating for HeLa to have the same rights as people going forward?

Even in the United States, your opinion does not represent "American culture".
you use isolated cases to prove that only East Asia is so? You are still using the example of the Abrahamic God system. What about those views that have nothing to do with Abrahamic?

The whole Abrahamic religion can almost be regarded as one point of view, because this is indeed a matter of doctrine.

And what about the scientific point of view? Here is a literature review.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5499222/

Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 23 Jul 2022, 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's pretty typical of American conservatives to conflate their opinions with what the American people think. It's not even surprising, they've been relying on it as an intentional rhetorical trick for so long that they've started believing themselves and forgetting that it's just a trick.

I feel like no matter the perspective this is a topic where a lot of emotion-based arguments will be heard and some of the stronger ones (for multiple positions) involve emotional considerations.

That said, most of the dryer/more objective arguments aren't as conclusive and are unlikely to work on someone who's looking at things though an emotional lens. Someone who believes in souls probably won't be swayed by the ZEF not yet having meaningful brain function because they're not worried about something objective to begin with.

That same person might be persuaded by being forced to face the suffering their preferred policies will cause, which I feel is actually a positive for pro-choicers. Some antichoicers are going to lose their nerve once this impacts them or people they care about.

Ok, I see what's happening here...

I don't think you fully understand what the USA is like. The beauty of the American system is affording even the poorest among us are extremely well off in comparison to other countries. We talk about how bad off our homeless population is and it's still much more livable than other parts of the world. I’m not going to propagandize living here--parts of it suck. But it is still true that you can be a black kid from the worst gang-infested neighborhood, get a college education, and become the CEO of a Fortune 500 company. You can also start the son of a billionaire and end up destitute. And you can wake up every day and end up anywhere in between.

What many people lack is self-confidence, know-how, and determination to put everything on the line to achieve what matters most to them. For me, it's not about the money. I love playing musical instruments. I love going to church. I love my family. And if my job threatens any of those things, I’ll quit my job and move my family somewhere else. I won’t ask permission. I won't worry about what people will say about me. But I’ve lived a good chunk of my life in the Mississippi Delta. I know what black neighborhoods are like. I’ver has been poor. I’ve been homeless. And I know I never want to go back to that existence.

I’m responsible for seven people including myself living in the same house. And since the pandemic started we have worked hard to get free of the mistakes we made that kept us poor. We feel blessed that we live in a country that allows us these opportunities, that no matter what you did or how long you waited, it's never really too late.

Not as many people in the USA are very grateful for what they have. There used to be more people who loved this country. And one of the problems we have is that people growing up in certain communities aren't taught how to take advantage of the freedom we have.

We are debating issues related to abortion in the US, and the freedoms we have still allow abortion for anyone who wants it. Women are already crossing state lines for abortions. The idea that someone can be “too poor” or “can’t” just simply isn't realistically part of American existence.

There are Americans who will never believe that. I used to try to encourage a former WP’er who eventually got banned, but I wanted him to know nobody could make him stay in a bad situation. Save a little money, make a trip out, stop where you run out of gas, and get a new job and a place to live. Start there. I fear the worst has happened to him, but his situation was never hopeless. He just couldn't see past his own four walls.

I don't think you truly understand how freely we live in the US. Heck, not everyone who lives here even understands it. But I think it would help you to know how radically different things might be between the US and China. I know the Chinese have much more freedom than you used to.

But the thing about uterine prolapse after having to go right back to work? I’ve never heard of that even being a thing here. I think we need to allow women more time to recover and establish that as a standard for treatment of women in the workplace, but mistreatment of women isn't so rampant that uterine prolapse is that much of a problem.

I’m sure Isabella or Twilight might have some better numbers on that, but I’m unaware that it is a frequent problem here.

This is not about mistreating women.
Earlier, women were not allowed to leave their bedrooms until before marriage.

In earlier times, women born were not even allowed to read, let alone use English. Is this much more freedom?

Communist feminism allows women to and need to work to be self-sufficient, just like normal people.
But poverty and the need for manual labor cannot be solved by any "system" and "freedom" - and this is related to the economic blockade imposed by the United States(and the Soviet Union) on China at that time.

Last edited by SkinnedWolf on 23 Jul 2022, 4:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Compared to the developed world being poor in the US is closer to living in a developing nation than a developed one.