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If a girl is raped and pregnant, should she keep the baby?

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Vexcalibur
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05 Aug 2011, 8:59 am

Then there is only one conclusion to make about you.

Philologos wrote:
[Do all women opposed to abortion hate women?]

This question would only be relevant if you thought that women can't be misogynistic and that's just a too dumb thing to think.


DarthMetaKnight wrote:
no

People who think that pro-lifers are inherently misogynistic need to stop being f***ing dipsh**s.


Being pro-life is inherently misogynistic. I feel like I am repeating myself, but you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being than on the rights a woman has over her own body. We are not even talking about her right to vote or to own property but about the most basic right anyone has. The right to decide what happens to your body. Pushing for a world in which everyone including things that are not human things are entitled to this amazingly basic right except women is as misogynistic as heck.

Of course, although being pro-life is a misogynistic act, it does not mean that all pro-life people are misogynists, as they may be unintentionally doing a misogynist action (Note though that not figuring that out by themselves that they are being misogynistic makes them a tad stupid, but that's forgivable). However, if after learning the true implications that making abortion illegal has towards women rights you still don't change your mind then you are officially a misogynist.

Congratulations, you graduated!


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05 Aug 2011, 2:16 pm

Quote:
you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being


Pro-lifers view a fetus as a human - not a potential human, and certainly not an imaginary one. If YOU thought a fetus was a human, then being pro-life would not make you a misogynist.



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05 Aug 2011, 2:45 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Then there is only one conclusion to make about you.

Philologos wrote:
[Do all women opposed to abortion hate women?]

This question would only be relevant if you thought that women can't be misogynistic and that's just a too dumb thing to think.


DarthMetaKnight wrote:
no

People who think that pro-lifers are inherently misogynistic need to stop being f***ing dipsh**s.


Being pro-life is inherently misogynistic. I feel like I am repeating myself, but you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being than on the rights a woman has over her own body. We are not even talking about her right to vote or to own property but about the most basic right anyone has. The right to decide what happens to your body. Pushing for a world in which everyone including things that are not human things are entitled to this amazingly basic right except women is as misogynistic as heck.

Of course, although being pro-life is a misogynistic act, it does not mean that all pro-life people are misogynists, as they may be unintentionally doing a misogynist action (Note though that not figuring that out by themselves that they are being misogynistic makes them a tad stupid, but that's forgivable). However, if after learning the true implications that making abortion illegal has towards women rights you still don't change your mind then you are officially a misogynist.

Congratulations, you graduated!
...Or maybe you're just a s**t slinger who loves using loaded propositions and condescension rather than debating in a mature manner. Try the latter for once and maybe you'll be able to breathe once you stop drowning yourself in a pool of arrogance. Yeah I guess women who are pro-life must either hate themselves or are stupid. Only if we all live in your two-dimensional world.



Last edited by AceOfSpades on 05 Aug 2011, 3:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Tequila
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05 Aug 2011, 2:51 pm

blunnet wrote:
Heck, I can think of the likelihood of few pro-life women changing their minds experiencing the situation themselves.


Don't forget that a lot of anti-abortionists are not absolutists - i.e. they make exceptions for cases of rape, incest, or where continuing with the pregnancy has the very real possibility of permanent or deadly harm to the mother.



Last edited by Tequila on 05 Aug 2011, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

simon_says
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05 Aug 2011, 2:52 pm

The day we hold funerals for the 50% of fertilized eggs that go down the toilet naturally, or the fertilized eggs that are squandered, tossed or frozen for decades before being tossed by fertility clinics who service the crazy mommy-or-bust types, or pass out social security numbers and names to the miscarried fetuses that occur so frequently in the first trimester....

..is the day I'll cry over the fetus of a rapist being terminated by a victim. In fact the same tools should be used to scrape off his p*nis and make him eat it.



Last edited by simon_says on 05 Aug 2011, 2:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Oodain
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05 Aug 2011, 2:53 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being


Pro-lifers view a fetus as a human - not a potential human, and certainly not an imaginary one. If YOU thought a fetus was a human, then being pro-life would not make you a misogynist.


they are human but they are not a human consciousness which in turn makes it a non person, not a non human.

i dont think there is anyone that actually sees abortion as a good solution only the lesser of two evils.

if there really is no shortage of parents willing to adopt why dont they adopt someone from a third world country?


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number5
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05 Aug 2011, 3:07 pm

Oodain wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being


Pro-lifers view a fetus as a human - not a potential human, and certainly not an imaginary one. If YOU thought a fetus was a human, then being pro-life would not make you a misogynist.


they are human but they are not a human consciousness which in turn makes it a non person, not a non human.

i dont think there is anyone that actually sees abortion as a good solution only the lesser of two evils.

if there really is no shortage of parents willing to adopt why dont they adopt someone from a third world country?


Because it is very expensive and often involves a period of stay in that country for anywhere from about 4 weeks to 3 months, give or take. Many wanting families can't even afford the travel end of it, let alone the cost of the actual adoption which is somewhere around the 10K mark (or was about 10 years ago - it's probably gone up since then).

I don't think being pro-life automatically makes one a misogynist, but it's an observed tendency.



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05 Aug 2011, 3:10 pm

AceOfSpades wrote:
...Or maybe you're just a sh** slinger who loves using loaded propositions and condescension rather than debating in a mature manner. Try the latter for once and maybe you'll be able to breathe once you stop drowning yourself in a pool of arrogance. Yeah I guess women who are pro-life must either hate themselves or are stupid. Only if we all live in your two-dimensional world.

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05 Aug 2011, 4:30 pm

number5 wrote:
Oodain wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being


Pro-lifers view a fetus as a human - not a potential human, and certainly not an imaginary one. If YOU thought a fetus was a human, then being pro-life would not make you a misogynist.


they are human but they are not a human consciousness which in turn makes it a non person, not a non human.

i dont think there is anyone that actually sees abortion as a good solution only the lesser of two evils.

if there really is no shortage of parents willing to adopt why dont they adopt someone from a third world country?


Because it is very expensive and often involves a period of stay in that country for anywhere from about 4 weeks to 3 months, give or take. Many wanting families can't even afford the travel end of it, let alone the cost of the actual adoption which is somewhere around the 10K mark (or was about 10 years ago - it's probably gone up since then).

I don't think being pro-life automatically makes one a misogynist, but it's an observed tendency.

There are plenty of children here in the US waiting to be adopted - but they're generally not perfect, white, babies.



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05 Aug 2011, 4:43 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being


Pro-lifers view a fetus as a human - not a potential human, and certainly not an imaginary one. If YOU thought a fetus was a human, then being pro-life would not make you a misogynist.


Yes it would.

Why?

Because not even a human, not you, not I, not Nelson Mandela, has the right to use anyone else's body for sustenance.

Yet pro-lifers argue that fetuses should get an exception. That fetuses' rights are more important than women's.


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05 Aug 2011, 7:01 pm

It would be cruel for any woman to be forced to give birth in any situation against her will in the perspective of the woman. Forcing her into labor and to endure the pain of childbirth against her will is devaluing and disrespecting her and her consciousness. In the perspective of the unborn child, there is nothing to really think about; the child has not developed that much complexity in their thoughts or brain activity. The child's capacity for psychological pain and anguish is not as great as the mother's.

In the case of rape, a mother especially should have the choice to have the child or not. We should not force anything on her because it was already obvious she was already forced into being impregnated. We should not force an abortion nor we should force her to carry the baby long term.

If people, both men and woman, just kept their legs shut we wouldn't even be having this debate. I hate sex. It is the root of all good and evil.



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05 Aug 2011, 7:44 pm

It's been said before, but I'll say it again...

This entire discussion is useless anyway. Supposing we live in an age where abortions are illegal - except in certain situations (ex - rape)

Let's look at it more closely:

A woman would of course have to prove she has been raped. How quickly would this be proven? Would a woman have to wait for a trial complete with a guilty verdict? How long would that take? I'll bet you more than 38 weeks.

Even if a trial weren't needed - and it were a matter of obtaining a report from a doctor who agrees that the woman was most likely raped... how many layers of bureaucracy would need to be peeled away before she could get access to an abortion? How long would that take? She'd probably be in the third trimester by then, and it would be too late for an abortion anyway.

And lastly: MOST WOMEN WHO ARE RAPED DON'T REPORT IT. And why should they have to if they don't want to? What if they come from a background / culture that would ostracize her because of it?

It's oh so easy to sit back and make hypothetical judgement calls about hypothetical people.

(edited because of a duplicate sentence)



Last edited by cave_canem on 05 Aug 2011, 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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05 Aug 2011, 7:52 pm

LKL wrote:
number5 wrote:
Oodain wrote:
YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being


Pro-lifers view a fetus as a human - not a potential human, and certainly not an imaginary one. If YOU thought a fetus was a human, then being pro-life would not make you a misogynist.


they are human but they are not a human consciousness which in turn makes it a non person, not a non human.

i dont think there is anyone that actually sees abortion as a good solution only the lesser of two evils.

if there really is no shortage of parents willing to adopt why dont they adopt someone from a third world country?


Because it is very expensive and often involves a period of stay in that country for anywhere from about 4 weeks to 3 months, give or take. Many wanting families can't even afford the travel end of it, let alone the cost of the actual adoption which is somewhere around the 10K mark (or was about 10 years ago - it's probably gone up since then).

I don't think being pro-life automatically makes one a misogynist, but it's an observed tendency.

There are plenty of children here in the US waiting to be adopted - but they're generally not perfect, white, babies.


I was specifically addressing the question regarding third world adoption. It's much different here. Of course healthy white babies are out of stock. Last time I checked, healthy minority babies were also hard to come by. Sadly there are lots and lots of children available, many whom (who, whom?) have disabilities.



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05 Aug 2011, 8:13 pm

YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
you are putting more value on a potential, imaginary human being


Pro-lifers view a fetus as a human - not a potential human, and certainly not an imaginary one. If YOU thought a fetus was a human, then being pro-life would not make you a misogynist.
If you were to assume that it is a human, you would still be inherently be misogynistic. As you would gladly give this human being a right that is not given to any other kind of human being, the right to force another human being to donate the usage of all her organs so that the first (imaginary) human being goes to birth.

Last time I checked, your rights end where the rights of other people begin. I guess though that if you push on the belief that pregnant women are inherently sub-human and not deserving of the right to do what she wants with her own body you can have your way and make abortion illegal. But that's... exactly what being a misogynist is about, to believe that women are inherently less deserving of rights that other people have.

But of course, that discussion does not make any sense anyway, because young zygotes are definitely not human (not even a brain) and abortion proponents are normally fine with only allowing early abortion. Late abortion is as risky as birth anyway.


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91
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05 Aug 2011, 10:30 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Last time I checked, your rights end where the rights of other people begin.


That works both ways and the last time I checked the right to life trumps pretty much all the others.


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06 Aug 2011, 7:00 am

91 wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Last time I checked, your rights end where the rights of other people begin.


That works both ways and the last time I checked the right to life trumps pretty much all the others.


So if you have renal failure, someone should be forced to donate to you?

Take that to its logical conclusion...healthy people should be forced to donate anything that isn't vital. Your left eye, lung, kidney, adrenal, a portion of your liver...You think people should be walking organ banks because someone's right to life trumps the rest?


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