Two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door...

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Many theists reconsile their beliefs with evolution and biology in general by not taking the bible (and genesis in particular) literally. It's possible that a god created life (evolution does not comment on how life began, only how it develops) but after that evolution took over, god may have even guided human evolution, who knows. The thing is that evolution is a fact, the Theory that explains it is still flawed and will be refined as more data is collected, but refusing to accept evolution is refusing to accept reality.

I couldn't care less what someone's beliefs are, until they start asserting that their beliefs trump reality and attempt to impose their insanity on others, then I take issue.

I feel the same way from the opposite end of the spectrum, but then I gracefully exit the conversation because there's no point continuing.

Sounds like you and I are in agreement on a number of things, then. There are Christian believers in theistic evolution. I don't have a problem with that except that I think that sort of thing waters down a person's faith--i.e. denies the possibility that God may have actually created the universe according to a strict reading of Genesis.

My view is this, and I think you'll appreciate it: I wasn't there when the world was made and when all the animals and plants appeared, or when the stars appeared, and so on. So I don't claim to "know" how it all went down any more than big-bangers REALLY know the big bang happened (and there are a LOT of alternative explanations for that, btw, and cosmological origins are still being debated). All we know is that the universe IS and that life IS and has been since before recorded history. I believe that God is responsible for all creation and regardless of HOW, I have faith that God knows what He's doing. If Genesis is literally true in some sense AND if evolution is also true, then anyone with a little bit of imagination can reconcile the two. If Adam being made from the "dust of the ground" is a metaphor for how man evolved, then ok. Until I have incontrovertible PROOF and not mere "evidence" that things happened one way or the other, all I have left is the evidence I DO have and my interpretation of that evidence.

1. I've studied the Bible and in spite of various challenges have found it to be true.
2. I have faith in God and in His ability to reveal His wisdom to those who believe.
3. Therefore, since the Bible is true and correct, and since God has revelatory power, the book of Genesis in some sense is also true--even if it is not completely clear in what sense it is true and in spite of the reader's ability to understand it.

But if God is all-powerful, then you can't deny that Genesis 1 possibly is literally true. If it is a metaphor for creation, fine. What I'm saying is that you don't KNOW that it is only a metaphor. I take it on faith that it isn't a metaphor. When it's my turn to take my long walk upstairs and an angel pulls me aside and says, "You know that thing about evolution? It was true the whole time. We just don't want you to be embarrassed when you walk in and meet everyone else," I'll be perfectly ok with that. In terms of what really matters, the subject of evolution really is trivial.

The problem is that human understanding is limited and I'm fine with that, there will be many questions left unanswered at the time of my death. I understand that everything I "know" may be false, so I try to keep an open mind but at the same time I trust the data that we have, the conclusions drawn may be incomplete at best and false at worst, but the data remains.
I distrust anyone who claims to "know" that which can't be conclusively proven or who tries to discredit data in it's purest form solely because it clashes with their beliefs. Moreover, anyone who tries to pass on their unsupported "knowledge" as anything but that is to be stopped and discredited.

We don't know exactly what happend billions, millions, thousands or even hundreds of years ago but we do know the likelyhood of events that supposedly took place. As it stands, there is more data that supports evolution to be the process that got us here than there is data to support Genesis or any other creation story. People are free to disagree, but I would rather they do so honestly and admit that their beliefs are in spite of evidence.

For the billionth time AngelRho, the Theory of Evolution has absolutely nothing to do with the big bang or cosmology! Zero! Nothing!

The fact that you combine the two in a sentence just goes to show how utterly ignorant you are of the most basic science. The only people that ever conflate the two are fundie creationist loons, it really doesn't help your credibility.

What is your problem? When in this thread did I say that cosmology and evolution had anything to do with each other? Personal attacks aren't necessary.

Aye, and I can see that becoming an excuse for just switching off when they confront an idea that they don't like.

And personally I don't think anyone has been impolite here except a Jehovah's witness.

So why is it that one of the JW's decided that because somebody believed that the Bible was wrong that they would never change their mind?

They are the ones who have been creating the apologetics here whilst we have been trying to create cogent arguments that explain many different and important things. If their leaders don't want to talk to us then maybe us atheists will just preach the good news to these christians when they arrive at our door.

1) You said you were going to exit the conversation because of what he said, but then you return in order to make some wisecrack 'take that!' That is amazingly shallow.
2) You also decided that he wouldn't change his mind because he said that the bible was fiction. Someone's opinion doesn't instantly mean that they are unconvinceable. You have simply presumed that he would be. That is extremely prideful and insulting.

Forgive me but it seems to me like you are no longer attacking my beliefs, now you're attacking me personally. I have never attacked anyone on this forum. This is the main reason why I don't like to talk with anyone in this forum about my beliefs, or to get into discussions about biblical matters. No matter how respectful I try to be the discussions invariably turns hateful towards me personally. Your response seems to generally be the response I get. Please don't misunderstand me, I don't hate you in any way. I actually wish you well. :)

AngelRho, another thing about the "retroactive evolution" or whatever we wish to call it; since this thesis involves a cyclical process of evolution (ie returning to an initial form), I think that it is flawed and there is one very large glaring reason why: the earliest life evolved when the conditions were adequate for it to happen. If life is a cycle of back and forth, reappearing and disappearing species, then why is it that the original life forms are not the "default" that the cycle returns to when the conditions are right? After all, the initial conditions are obviously the most important for the development of abiogenesis.

I quoted and bolded you originally.

Those are your words.

You talk about evolution and then you talk about the big bang.
You talk about the origins of plants and animals and then you talk about the big bang and cosmological origins.

When in this thread did you say cosmology and evolution have anything to do with each other?

Posted: Thu Nov 03, 2011 5:26 pm

That is when.

It isn't a personal attack to ridicule your fantastical belief system that requires you to ignore centuries worth of established science and reality based fact.

AngelRho, the evidence for the Big Bang is pretty much everywhere if you look through a telescope and observe the expanding universe or the cosmic microwave background, or if you look far enough away and see the earlier universe and see that it fits with the theory based on predictions of the characteristics of early stars and galaxies

This whole thing can be avoided by answering the door naked, especially if you're female.
The younger ones on evangelistic missions have never seen a nude woman before.

Of course, if you've got a glorious gut you'd like to display over your tightie-whities, that can be just as effective.

a naked dude answering would work too. Especially if hes holding a giant floppy black dildo and invites them in to "help him find Jesus". If he happens to have a glorious belly keg all the better

Why exactly would Jehovah care about whether or not you believe in evolution?

you're implying that belief in evolution and personal salvation are mutually exclusive, but you havent said a word about how you arrived at that conclusion.

All that I saw he was implying was that messing with the minds of the insane is terribly fun.