Veganism

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What if I like killing my own babies and eating them, or ripping apart my pets while they are still alive? Exactly the same, the realization of some of my most trivial interests by violating the most important one's of others.

Then how do you suggest we get meat?

I would so eat it.

If there wasn't a taboo against it (or the risk of CJD), so would I.



nom nom nom

Good point!

LMAO

it certainly must be an old saying. it is so old it makes no longer makes sense.

i have tried many ways to process that, but i fail to find a way to internalize that part of the saying.

vegetables are food and they do not eat themselves or each other. carnivores are food for bacteria (at the very least), and carnivores do not eat vegetables. is it possible that you remember the saying incorrectly?



i am not sure of the definition of a vegan. is a person a vegan if they eat only fruits and nuts?
i know "vegans" eat no animal products, but are there any other criteria?

do they have to eat vegetables in order to be a vegan (i guess the "veg" in the word "vegan" indicates that they are likely to)

so anyway, i know vegans would be food if they ate only vegetables, and i know that people who ate only grains would also be food, and i also know that people who live on a diet of fruits and nuts would also be food.

i am not sure what the chinese saying is trying to say.




i understand that early humans (and some current ones) can walk or even run for days.

but i think the calorific expenditure of that excersize would be vastly greater than baiting a trap and waiting for results (which would be scalably abundant with the production of traps).

it would have been more energy efficient i believe to trap carnivores than to stalk progressively tiring herbivores over long distances.

my consideration is that they abandoned the idea of easily catching carnivores for the more arduous practice of stalking grazing animals because the flesh from grazing animals was much more easily digested into nutritional components that could be incorporated into their "systems" than the flesh of animals that had already incorporated herbivores into their systems in a similar way.




what has that got to do with anything? in fact sorry. it does not compute.




i never take advantage of trust. i value trust more than anything else in the world.
if a chicken came toward me and trusted me, it would immediately be accepted by me as a true friend. i would want to make it happy and i would try to think of things i can get for it to make it happy. it would be no less loved by me than anyone else.

you would just think "what an excellent opportunity", and you would kill that chicken.
yeahhh...i am thinking whether i should go on replying...

no i have decided to end this post.

well, if it's true that chickens can feel empathy then perhaps their sense of other and not their sense of self would be what made them unethical to kill? (not to mention that they beat quite a few humans granted that they do posses this trait :-/)



yes, this sounds reasonable to me.

Just to say - hyperscanning study reveals impaired sense of self in autism . And anyway most of what he said is so unbelievably dumb despite being self-proclaimed genius I wouldn't even know how to start replying. All in all I am just astonished that he was allowed to use the words he did. PPR is really a place full of "hateful BS".

Late reply, but...

Hmm, I don't get my iron tested or anything, but as soon as I started eating chicken I stopped experiencing the fatigue and other symptoms of anemia. I do eat a lot of beans, though (which apparently are high in iron). I also take B-12 vitamins.

Well you see, it is very hard to convince radical vegans that their diet is not the ultimate healthy diet. Of course, reality teaches us that balancing animal and vegetal products works best. What you are doing, to be mostly vegetarian but still include a chicken once a week is actually great for health and if my priority was life span over having flavor in life I would do it. 100% vegan diets on the other hand are harmful unless you put a lot (and I mean a lot) of thought and control into it, and of course, it is no surprise supplement fans advertise vegan diets so much, the health vegans out there are getting most of their nutrients from pills and tablets.


Did I pronounce the words "arbitrary morality" already in this thread? I'll do it again anyway.

Plants are perfectly healthy creatures too. Happiness is as subjective as heck and I would find it as hard to find it in chicken as it is in plants.

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Anyway, here I go to repeat my stance. If you go vegan for health reasons (and I mean a diagnosis) then that's all right. If you go vegan because you think it is healthier to stop eating animal products altogether you are misinformed and may be putting your life at risk. If you go vegan because you are afraid of animals dying because your existence, you are naive, as animals will still die, specially if you live at a building or use a computer but it is still all right. If you just don't like the taste of meat, then be my guest and eat whatever you like. Just be sure to know that going 100% vegan requires some organization and more thoughtful diet choices.

However, If you advertise it as a healthier diet you are putting other people's lives at risks. If you expect others to stop eating meat and need to remind the rest of us about how 'wrong' we are you are preachy and annoying and probably a bigot.

Due respect, Vex, I'm an omnivore, but that's BS. By Occam's razor, the default assumption is that an organism with similar brain structure to us and similar neurotransmitters to us is going to experience emotions (emotions are controlled by pretty primitive brain regions) similar to ours. If you were talking about clams, you might have a point - but I've dissected a lot of animals, including birds, and chickens (stupid and crazy though they are) are going to experience happiness and fear just like humans do. There are plenty of arguments for an omnivorous diet that don't resort to hypotheses with extra layers.

wrt. iron and B12: I don't eat a lot of meat, and when it's been a long time I start to experience pica in the form of craving ice. A turkey sandwich or a multivitamin generally nips it in the bud.

I can't believe someone actually played the "think of the poor plants!! !" card, but it's an easy argument to refute: Domesticated animals are plant-guzzling machines. It takes something like 10 pounds of feed to make 1 pound of meat. Half of the world's food crops are fed to domesticated animals instead of humans. If you eat meat then you are "murdering" plants by proxy. If you go vegetarian then your "footprint" is much smaller and your diet saves the lives of plants AND animals.

Regarding the health issue, numerous legitimate, peer-reviewed studies have proven beyond a reasonable doubt the negative health effects of over-consuming meat, eggs, and dairy. A well-planned diet high in nutritious plant foods and low in animal foods has been proven time and time again to be a healthy, sustainable lifestyle.

Hallelujah!

Not at all. Nutrients are nutrients are nutrients. There is quite simply no need to eat animal products...probably because "animal products" and "vegetables" are not the only types of food.

"It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate, and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life cycle, including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood, and adolescence, and for athletes. A vegetarian diet is defined as one that does not include meat (including fowl) or seafood, or products containing those foods. This article reviews the current data related to key nutrients for vegetarians including protein, n-3 fatty acids, iron, zinc, iodine, calcium, and vitamins D and B-12. A vegetarian diet can meet current recommendations for all of these nutrients. In some cases, supplements or fortified foods can provide useful amounts of important nutrients. An evidence-based review showed that vegetarian diets can be nutritionally adequate in pregnancy and result in positive maternal and infant health outcomes. The results of an evidence-based review showed that a vegetarian diet is associated with a lower risk of death from ischemic heart disease. Vegetarians also appear to have lower low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, lower blood pressure, and lower rates of hypertension and type 2 diabetes than nonvegetarians. Furthermore, vegetarians tend to have a lower body mass index and lower overall cancer rates. Features of a vegetarian diet that may reduce risk of chronic disease include lower intakes of saturated fat and cholesterol and higher intakes of fruits, vegetables, whole grains, nuts, soy products, fiber, and phytochemicals. The variability of dietary practices among vegetarians makes individual assessment of dietary adequacy essential. In addition to assessing dietary adequacy, food and nutrition professionals can also play key roles in educating vegetarians about sources of specific nutrients, food purchase and preparation, and dietary modifications to meet their needs."





If one is wholly-ignorant of the concept of sentience and all of biological science (hell- have you never owned a pet, even?) then sure- unless you're actually arguing that, for instance, stabbing the eye of a dog is no more or less ethical than stabbing the eye of a potato, I doubt you are.

Veganism isn't a diet, it's an entire lifestyle, with the dietary aspect being but one. "Putting one's life at risk" because one doesn't eat animal products? Is that not hyperbolic?

Veganism is not objection to death, but to animal objectification as inherently unethical, that objectification often resulting in torture and death.
More importantly, most sane people can differentiate between a tiny number of incidental deaths and a massive number, to the tune of billions, of deliberate deaths. The notion that we don't live in an ideal world is well-within the ethical vegan's concept, since his or her choices force this realization every day.

Forgoing thousands of animal products in all aspects of life wouldn't make much sense for someone who just didn't like one.

It's a fact that adequate nutrition can be derived from plant-based sources, without the cholesterol, fat, and caloric density of animal products. No amount of dancing around the issue will negate it.

As no doubt any other pesky group has been throughout history when they dare to tell others exploitation and oppression isn't a right.

Species don't have ethical interests- individuals do.
I highly-doubt you'd consider a scenario where humans are enslaved, tortured, and killed to be preferable to one where they didn't exist.

The fact that a sentient creature was bred to die is hardly an ethical argument for that system.

And, once more, veganism has nothing to do with eating meat.

It's an opposition to animal objectification, and the resulting lifestyle, including:
not buying or consuming meat, dairy, eggs, honey, or foods containing them
not buying or wearing fur, leather, silk, wool, or clothing trimmed in them
not buying or using consumer products from companies whose distributors conduct animal toxicity tests
not buying animals to be used as pets from pet stores or breeders
not frequenting zoos, circuses, rodeos, aquariums, or other venues where animals are held in captivity or forced to perform for human entertainment and profit.

Even ethical vegetarianism encompasses far more than forgoing meat.