Robert Zubrin: the importance of space for mankind.

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androbot2084
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11 Jan 2012, 3:11 pm

If the focus is the Middle East maybe they will go to Mars. Better to nuke Mars rather than the Middle East and a Mars mission will get rid of the entire regions nuclear weapons.



ruveyn
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11 Jan 2012, 3:48 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Yeah, essentially. But prior to doing that, we can build up a civilization throughout the solar system and have even more material and intellectual resources available to go yet further later on.


Mining the asteroid belt is the only thing that will pay for this venture.

Mars may have some use as a jump off point to an extensive asteroid mining operation. The metals will be brought down to Mars for smelting and purification. Semi-finished products can be shipped to Earth where most of them will be consumed or used.

I expect metals, rare-earths and some gemstones will be mined in the asteroid belt.

ruveyn



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11 Jan 2012, 4:18 pm

as i recall there is quite the booty on them islands in the black.

if it werent for the logistical hell of it one could actually just dump all the asteroids you want to mine (break them up if theyre too big)
bombard the surface of mars for half a century with them instead of nukes (though we might as well use them, either as fuel or as large mushroomy heating elements)
the resulting mash of heavy metals (providing there is kept some control of the impact energy) would have quite the yield i imagine.

in the process one would have thickened the martian atmosphere by a smidgen, hopefully enough to start some bacteria off in a vague attempt at localized (read isolated) terraforming,

the purpose of which would be to sustain the colonies and worker towns at least partially with oxygen, later maybe even food (dunno how much bacterial waste would need to accumulate in the soil for plant growth)

as far as gemstones go, they dont really have a practical aplication

the value of most is entirely arbitrary, even more when you look at true roughs, my next door neighbour dug out a couple carats of cloudy emeralds form a single rough, not true eye catchers but they look nice enough,

opalescent stones however are extremely beutifull in their complexity, unfortunately you need a biosphere for them to form.

where was i ?? nvm.


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iamnotaparakeet
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11 Jan 2012, 4:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

Yeah, essentially. But prior to doing that, we can build up a civilization throughout the solar system and have even more material and intellectual resources available to go yet further later on.


Mining the asteroid belt is the only thing that will pay for this venture.

Mars may have some use as a jump off point to an extensive asteroid mining operation. The metals will be brought down to Mars for smelting and purification. Semi-finished products can be shipped to Earth where most of them will be consumed or used.

I expect metals, rare-earths and some gemstones will be mined in the asteroid belt.

ruveyn


Also, the small asteroid moons of Mars could be converted into processing facility and transportation hubs. Since they actually have stable orbits of Mars, which is amazing due to the topography of Mars, it would be best to make the most out of them.



iamnotaparakeet
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11 Jan 2012, 4:33 pm

Oodain wrote:
as i recall there is quite the booty on them islands in the black.

if it werent for the logistical hell of it one could actually just dump all the asteroids you want to mine (break them up if theyre too big)
bombard the surface of mars for half a century with them instead of nukes (though we might as well use them, either as fuel or as large mushroomy heating elements)
the resulting mash of heavy metals (providing there is kept some control of the impact energy) would have quite the yield i imagine.

in the process one would have thickened the martian atmosphere by a smidgen, hopefully enough to start some bacteria off in a vague attempt at localized (read isolated) terraforming,

the purpose of which would be to sustain the colonies and worker towns at least partially with oxygen, later maybe even food (dunno how much bacterial waste would need to accumulate in the soil for plant growth)

as far as gemstones go, they dont really have a practical aplication

the value of most is entirely arbitrary, even more when you look at true roughs, my next door neighbour dug out a couple carats of cloudy emeralds form a single rough, not true eye catchers but they look nice enough,

opalescent stones however are extremely beutifull in their complexity, unfortunately you need a biosphere for them to form.

where was i ?? nvm.


Actually, it might be better to do an idea proposed in Red Mars of redirecting ice asteroids and small ice planetoids from the belt and from the rings of Saturn and having them errode away in entry of the Martian atmosphere rather than impacting. It will still deliver the kinetic energy and the materials, but it would have less possible long term side effects. Once the atmospheric temperature and pressure reaches a certain point, which in How To Live On Mars is listed as being about 240 Kelvin (already reaches that at certain times of the year in some latitudes at least) and about 80 millibars (yes, a little over an order of magnitude more than it has right now), the process of carbon dioxide and water outgassing from the regolith would become automatic.



Oodain
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11 Jan 2012, 5:24 pm

true but you would essentially cut down huge costs of zero g mining and if they are broken up sufficiently they could be diffused over a larger crater to catch debris,

ice asteroids would be required for water at some point or the other, water would in my eyes be the largest obstacle to sustainable life in space, its scarce on mars.

well then, off to bed methinks, work in 10 hours and im running on my 30th.
luckilæy im almost done migrating those horrible small buisness servers, man that console is finicky about how it wants things done.
you cant even rename a specific OU to a specific name as it requires the standard MyBusiness tag for the console to search for, gargh :x ,


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iamnotaparakeet
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11 Jan 2012, 6:00 pm

Oodain wrote:
true but you would essentially cut down huge costs of zero g mining and if they are broken up sufficiently they could be diffused over a larger crater to catch debris,

ice asteroids would be required for water at some point or the other, water would in my eyes be the largest obstacle to sustainable life in space, its scarce on mars.

well then, off to bed methinks, work in 10 hours and im running on my 30th.
luckilæy im almost done migrating those horrible small buisness servers, man that console is finicky about how it wants things done.
you cant even rename a specific OU to a specific name as it requires the standard MyBusiness tag for the console to search for, gargh, :x


It might be easier to collect asteroidal material off the surface once it's fallen, but it would really be kinda scary living anywhere within a few tens or even hundreds of kilometers of such targeted impact zones. Not sure if I get exactly what you are suggesting and at what stage of colonization you are suggesting it for though.

Well, for asteroid mining, you'd probably want to make certain your operation had the necessary supplies with you anyhow and, with distillation and osmosis processes, running out of potable water isn't as much of an issue as it was in the age of sail.


Hope your work gives you less headaches there. Sounds rather annoying.



androbot2084
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11 Jan 2012, 7:14 pm

space mining will involve setting off nuclear charges rather than dynamite.



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11 Jan 2012, 8:32 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
space mining will involve setting off nuclear charges rather than dynamite.


In a place without oxygen, ordinary explosives will not work.

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
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12 Jan 2012, 1:25 pm

ruveyn wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
space mining will involve setting off nuclear charges rather than dynamite.


In a place without oxygen, ordinary explosives will not work.

ruveyn


You could have C4 or other explosives in a pressurized canister as a mining charge.



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12 Jan 2012, 1:40 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
space mining will involve setting off nuclear charges rather than dynamite.


In a place without oxygen, ordinary explosives will not work.

ruveyn


You could have C4 or other explosives in a pressurized canister as a mining charge.


Possible.

ruveyn



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12 Jan 2012, 4:45 pm

Loved the video (watched the second one); great idea and I think Zubrin may have perhaps nailed the biggest challenge: getting a bunch of bureaucrats to make this much sense.

I'm curious about the injection-stage induced artificial gravity as well. People have been talking about centrifuges all this time and I'm curious to how dragging a cone effectively yields an effect to people inside a vessel (I'm sure its right, I'm seeing it suggested in other places, but I want to try and get my head around it).


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iamnotaparakeet
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12 Jan 2012, 7:23 pm

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
Loved the video (watched the second one); great idea and I think Zubrin may have perhaps nailed the biggest challenge: getting a bunch of bureaucrats to make this much sense.

I'm curious about the injection-stage induced artificial gravity as well. People have been talking about centrifuges all this time and I'm curious to how dragging a cone effectively yields an effect to people inside a vessel (I'm sure its right, I'm seeing it suggested in other places, but I want to try and get my head around it).


In the Mars direct plan, the final acceleration stage and the habitation stage would be connected together by a wire and once at distance from eachother apply torque to produce rotation. The energy of rotation is supplied by the thrusters and the centripetal force is applied to both by the tension wire. They rotate about each other, allowing for centrifugal gravity for the crew in the habitation module.



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12 Jan 2012, 7:30 pm

Centrifugal force is not gravity however, I wonder if very long term studies (10-15 years or more of CF as opposed to "real" gravity) will show significant differences.



iamnotaparakeet
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12 Jan 2012, 7:47 pm

shrox wrote:
Centrifugal force is not gravity however, I wonder if very long term studies (10-15 years or more of CF as opposed to "real" gravity) will show significant differences.


Seeing as there have not been any studies and that the trip would only be 6 to 8.5 months, it shouldn't be a problem even if somehow the human body needed mass based acceleration instead of centrifugal as its replacement. People have been kept in zero gravity for longer, and providing them centrifugal force to prevent atrophy ought to work.



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12 Jan 2012, 9:08 pm

Note that oxyliques, panclastites and even black powder contain an oxidizer, LOX, N2O4 and KNO3, respectively, thus all 3, and basically any non-thermobaric explosive, would work in space. Do not forget that naval torpedoes' warheads use of conventional, if modified, explosives, that in the late 19th century the German Empire was testing torpedoes with panclastite warheads and that all chemical rockets operate on the same basic principle as chemical explosives: An oxidizer and 1 or more propellants. How do you think underwater firearms operate?


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