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Joker
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03 Jul 2012, 1:41 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I just call him God. I figure everyone else knows who I'm talking about.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I know who you are talking about. I call him EL LA.


Sounds good to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, to quote the Bard, "A rose by any other name."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thanks though it sounds a lot like Allah. My mother thinks it's neat but. People at my church think it's kinda weird. They don't much care for aramaic even though that is the language Jesus spokie.


Do they suppose he spoke Hebrew?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Yeah they think that. When I try telling them he didn't they think I am making it up. WHen I say he spoke aramaic.



Kraichgauer
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03 Jul 2012, 1:44 am

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I just call him God. I figure everyone else knows who I'm talking about.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I know who you are talking about. I call him EL LA.


Sounds good to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, to quote the Bard, "A rose by any other name."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thanks though it sounds a lot like Allah. My mother thinks it's neat but. People at my church think it's kinda weird. They don't much care for aramaic even though that is the language Jesus spokie.


Do they suppose he spoke Hebrew?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Yeah they think that. When I try telling them he didn't they think I am making it up. WHen I say he spoke aramaic.


Weird. My pastor is always telling us that Christ spoke Aramaic, and I've never heard a church member ever try to refute him on that point.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



greenheron
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03 Jul 2012, 1:49 am

Consider this. In the account of the arrest of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemani in one of the canonical gospels (maybe John) the soldiers of the hign priest, or the Sanhedrin ask Jesus whether he is Jesus. He responds, "I am." They fall back and fall on the ground for a time, apparently because he has not only answered, as it were, I am Jesus, but he has used the formula from Exodus, the identification of divine self in the presence of Moses: I am, or I am who am, or I am am(ing) itself.

There were a number of ways (utterances) which the Hebrews (Habiru) used to refer to their god, complicated, for us, because we do not know for certain what vowels they used with the consonants.

I understand that scholars, Jewish and gentile, believe that the word "Jehovah" is an invalid name, as it is a much later attempt to make sense of the tetragrammaton JHVH, and has no grounding in either history, or linguistics.

I am not Jewish, although I believe my beloved grandfather came from a Jewish family, and I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in Phoenix--the happiest times of my life. I have heard and read that a number of rabbis believe that the Mount Sinai event in Exodus is the account of a powerful extraterrestrial, or extradimensional visitor, and that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam may be erudite cargo cults, which have done much good, as well as much harm.

Have any of you considered the possibility?

In other words, the visitation was a hook on which mankind hung hopes and dreams, and then tried to develop them.



Kraichgauer
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03 Jul 2012, 1:54 am

greenheron wrote:
Consider this. In the account of the arrest of Jesus in the Garden of Gethsemani in one of the canonical gospels (maybe John) the soldiers of the hign priest, or the Sanhedrin ask Jesus whether he is Jesus. He responds, "I am." They fall back and fall on the ground for a time, apparently because he has not only answered, as it were, I am Jesus, but he has used the formula from Exodus, the identification of divine self in the presence of Moses: I am, or I am who am, or I am am(ing) itself.

There were a number of ways (utterances) which the Hebrews (Habiru) used to refer to their god, complicated, for us, because we do not know for certain what vowels they used with the consonants.

I understand that scholars, Jewish and gentile, believe that the word "Jehovah" is an invalid name, as it is a much later attempt to make sense of the tetragrammaton JHVH, and has no grounding in either history, or linguistics.

I am not Jewish, although I believe my beloved grandfather came from a Jewish family, and I grew up in a Jewish neighborhood in Phoenix--the happiest times of my life. I have heard and read that a number of rabbis believe that the Mount Sinai event in Exodus is the account of a powerful extraterrestrial, or extradimensional visitor, and that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam may be erudite cargo cults, which have done much good, as well as much harm.

Have any of you considered the possibility?

In other words, the visitation was a hook on which mankind hung hopes and dreams, and then tried to develop them.


Interesting notion of the Abrahamic faiths essentially being just Cargo Cults. I've heard that sort of thing before, though I don't think most legitimate scholars of any faith take it seriously.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



AngelRho
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03 Jul 2012, 6:34 am

kxmode wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
kxmode wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
"Yahweh" does not appear in Matthew 6:9 or John 17:6. I'd like to know where the Name appears in the New Testament.


Then tell me who do you think Jesus was referring to?

Does the Name appear in the New Testament or not?


You have all the tools at your disposal. Your have a copy of the bible. You have the various scriptures I quoted. You also have your God given intellect. You can use your powers of reason to answer your own question.

It has been asserted that "Yahweh" appears in the New Testament. I don't mean figuratively, I don't mean as a reference back to the OT. I mean the actual tetragrammaton Name, perhaps transliterated somehow in Aramaic, Hebrew, or Greek. I've read the Bible straight through twice, and I've read the gospels many more times than that throughout my Christian life. It's JUST NOT THERE.

If you want me to believe that it is, it's YOUR problem to prove it to me. It's YOUR burden of proof. If you stubbornly refuse to provide any evidence, exactly what conclusion am I supposed to draw here? Right now I'm thinking you're a scripturally ignorant, "Sacred Name," pseudo-Christian false teacher. You can quote all the scripture you want, but if those passages don't support your assertions, then you're just flat WRONG.



Joker
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03 Jul 2012, 1:55 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I just call him God. I figure everyone else knows who I'm talking about.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I know who you are talking about. I call him EL LA.


Sounds good to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, to quote the Bard, "A rose by any other name."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thanks though it sounds a lot like Allah. My mother thinks it's neat but. People at my church think it's kinda weird. They don't much care for aramaic even though that is the language Jesus spokie.


Do they suppose he spoke Hebrew?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Yeah they think that. When I try telling them he didn't they think I am making it up. WHen I say he spoke aramaic.


Weird. My pastor is always telling us that Christ spoke Aramaic, and I've never heard a church member ever try to refute him on that point.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


It's called being misinformed lot of people in america are like that :lol:



Kraichgauer
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03 Jul 2012, 2:35 pm

Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I just call him God. I figure everyone else knows who I'm talking about.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I know who you are talking about. I call him EL LA.


Sounds good to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, to quote the Bard, "A rose by any other name."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thanks though it sounds a lot like Allah. My mother thinks it's neat but. People at my church think it's kinda weird. They don't much care for aramaic even though that is the language Jesus spokie.


Do they suppose he spoke Hebrew?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Yeah they think that. When I try telling them he didn't they think I am making it up. WHen I say he spoke aramaic.


Weird. My pastor is always telling us that Christ spoke Aramaic, and I've never heard a church member ever try to refute him on that point.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


It's called being misinformed lot of people in america are like that :lol:


I guess so. Have you ever talked about this with your pastor present, say, like in a Bible study class? Because I would think he'd back you up.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



Joker
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03 Jul 2012, 2:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
Joker wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
I just call him God. I figure everyone else knows who I'm talking about.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I know who you are talking about. I call him EL LA.


Sounds good to me.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


I see absolutely nothing wrong with that. Again, to quote the Bard, "A rose by any other name."

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Thanks though it sounds a lot like Allah. My mother thinks it's neat but. People at my church think it's kinda weird. They don't much care for aramaic even though that is the language Jesus spokie.


Do they suppose he spoke Hebrew?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Yeah they think that. When I try telling them he didn't they think I am making it up. WHen I say he spoke aramaic.


Weird. My pastor is always telling us that Christ spoke Aramaic, and I've never heard a church member ever try to refute him on that point.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


It's called being misinformed lot of people in america are like that :lol:


I guess so. Have you ever talked about this with your pastor present, say, like in a Bible study class? Because I would think he'd back you up.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I have and he agrees with me about it. Just the rest of the church family. Not so much :lol:



kxmode
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04 Jul 2012, 5:05 pm

In English, God's name is Jehovah. It's as simple as that. There's nothing complicated about it.

To argue that English speakers MUST use the original Hebrew pronunciation of God's name, betrays a poor estimation of God's character; that he has an idolatrous attitude toward the Hebrew language, exalting it above all other languages; and is hypocritical. First and foremost God is the one who gave humanity the diverse range of languages today. (Genesis 11:7) So no doubt he loves variety. We see it in the plants, animals, and even human beings. (Acts 10:34,35)

To say that English speakers must use the Hebrew pronunciation, is to be idolatrous toward the Hebrew language because it conveys the idea that God is a Hebrew who only speaks Hebrew and only accepts worshippers who call on him in Hebrew. How ridiculous! Is the most powerful being in universe someone who should be confined to one language or nationality? Is he the God of the Jewish speakers only? Is he not also the God of people of all the nations who speak and pronounce other languages? The apostle Paul echoed those questions at Romans 3:29, which reads, "Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations?"

All other Bible names are translated in English. We don't say "Yirmeyahu", "Eliyahu", "Yitsaac". We say "Jeremiah", "Elijah", "Isaac". But hardly anyone argues that this is wrong or shows a lack of respect for God's ancient prophets -- because it doesn't. So why do many feel the need to unreasonably apply different rules to God's name? Is it because they see God's name as some sort of verbal talisman that has to be said in a certain specific way to get results? Do they see God as some arrogant, snobbish, nit-picking exactor who will ignore them or worse yet punish them if they don't use the original Hebrew pronunciation? Don't you see how their reasoning reveals the very low estimation such persons have of the character of God? They don't see him as a reasonable friendly being but as an aloof exactor who must be appeased with precise pronunciations.

Showing the hypocrisy of this stance, is the fact that the Bible itself gives translated names, thus providing a scriptural precedent for the propriety of translating names from one language to another. Notice these examples from the bible:

(John 1:42) He led him to Jesus. When Jesus looked upon him he said: “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).
(Acts 9:36) But in Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which, when translated, means Dorcas. She abounded in good deeds and gifts of mercy that she was rendering.
(Acts 13:6,8) When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they met up with a certain man, a sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, . . . But Elymas the sorcerer (that, in fact, is the way his name is translated) began opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.

Here is a very large flaw of hypocrisy to consider: Many of those saying God's name should only be pronounced in Hebrew, have absolutely no problem pronouncing the name of his Son in English -- "Jesus". Well, "Jesus" is also certainly not the original Hebrew pronunciation. It was likely "Yeshua" or "Yehoshua". What is more, the inspired writers of the Greek scriptures translated Jesus' name from the Hebrew Yeshua/Yehoshua into the Greek "Iesous". Certainly, if using the original Hebrew pronunciation of God's name, even among non-Hebrew speakers, was that important, then one would have expected the inspired writers to take care to keep the original Hebrew pronunciation of his Son's name when writing the Greek texts. Acts 4:12 tells us there is not another name given under heaven by which we must get saved. Well, which name? Yeshua or Iesous? The inspired, spirit-filled, Christian writers were obviously not concerned with such infantile nit-picking! They were concerned about the identity behind the name and making that name known in Greek -- not just Hebrew.

To further add hypocrisy upon hypocrisy, some diehard "Jesus - pronouncers" believe in the Trinity -- that Jesus is equal to God. So how on Earth could they reason that "Jehovah" is wrong for God, the Father, and have no problem whatsoever using the equally "erroneous" (by their standards) "Jesus" for the equally important (by their doctrine) "God, the Son"?


_________________
A Proud Witness of Jehovah God (JW.org)
Revelation 21:4 "And [God] will wipe out every tear from their eyes,
and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore.
The former things have passed away."


Kraichgauer
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05 Jul 2012, 1:41 am

kxmode wrote:
In English, God's name is Jehovah. It's as simple as that. There's nothing complicated about it.

To argue that English speakers MUST use the original Hebrew pronunciation of God's name, betrays a poor estimation of God's character; that he has an idolatrous attitude toward the Hebrew language, exalting it above all other languages; and is hypocritical. First and foremost God is the one who gave humanity the diverse range of languages today. (Genesis 11:7) So no doubt he loves variety. We see it in the plants, animals, and even human beings. (Acts 10:34,35)

To say that English speakers must use the Hebrew pronunciation, is to be idolatrous toward the Hebrew language because it conveys the idea that God is a Hebrew who only speaks Hebrew and only accepts worshippers who call on him in Hebrew. How ridiculous! Is the most powerful being in universe someone who should be confined to one language or nationality? Is he the God of the Jewish speakers only? Is he not also the God of people of all the nations who speak and pronounce other languages? The apostle Paul echoed those questions at Romans 3:29, which reads, "Or is he the God of the Jews only? Is he not also of people of the nations?"

All other Bible names are translated in English. We don't say "Yirmeyahu", "Eliyahu", "Yitsaac". We say "Jeremiah", "Elijah", "Isaac". But hardly anyone argues that this is wrong or shows a lack of respect for God's ancient prophets -- because it doesn't. So why do many feel the need to unreasonably apply different rules to God's name? Is it because they see God's name as some sort of verbal talisman that has to be said in a certain specific way to get results? Do they see God as some arrogant, snobbish, nit-picking exactor who will ignore them or worse yet punish them if they don't use the original Hebrew pronunciation? Don't you see how their reasoning reveals the very low estimation such persons have of the character of God? They don't see him as a reasonable friendly being but as an aloof exactor who must be appeased with precise pronunciations.

Showing the hypocrisy of this stance, is the fact that the Bible itself gives translated names, thus providing a scriptural precedent for the propriety of translating names from one language to another. Notice these examples from the bible:

(John 1:42) He led him to Jesus. When Jesus looked upon him he said: “You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Cephas” (which is translated Peter).
(Acts 9:36) But in Joppa there was a certain disciple named Tabitha, which, when translated, means Dorcas. She abounded in good deeds and gifts of mercy that she was rendering.
(Acts 13:6,8) When they had gone through the whole island as far as Paphos, they met up with a certain man, a sorcerer, a false prophet, a Jew whose name was Bar-Jesus, . . . But Elymas the sorcerer (that, in fact, is the way his name is translated) began opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith.

Here is a very large flaw of hypocrisy to consider: Many of those saying God's name should only be pronounced in Hebrew, have absolutely no problem pronouncing the name of his Son in English -- "Jesus". Well, "Jesus" is also certainly not the original Hebrew pronunciation. It was likely "Yeshua" or "Yehoshua". What is more, the inspired writers of the Greek scriptures translated Jesus' name from the Hebrew Yeshua/Yehoshua into the Greek "Iesous". Certainly, if using the original Hebrew pronunciation of God's name, even among non-Hebrew speakers, was that important, then one would have expected the inspired writers to take care to keep the original Hebrew pronunciation of his Son's name when writing the Greek texts. Acts 4:12 tells us there is not another name given under heaven by which we must get saved. Well, which name? Yeshua or Iesous? The inspired, spirit-filled, Christian writers were obviously not concerned with such infantile nit-picking! They were concerned about the identity behind the name and making that name known in Greek -- not just Hebrew.

To further add hypocrisy upon hypocrisy, some diehard "Jesus - pronouncers" believe in the Trinity -- that Jesus is equal to God. So how on Earth could they reason that "Jehovah" is wrong for God, the Father, and have no problem whatsoever using the equally "erroneous" (by their standards) "Jesus" for the equally important (by their doctrine) "God, the Son"?


I have no problem with you calling God by the name Jehovah - I just choose not to.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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05 Jul 2012, 3:18 am

kxmode wrote:

Here is a very large flaw of hypocrisy to consider: Many of those saying God's name should only be pronounced in Hebrew, have absolutely no problem pronouncing the name of his Son in English -- "Jesus". Well, "Jesus" is also certainly not the original Hebrew pronunciation. It was likely "Yeshua" or "Yehoshua". What is more, the inspired writers of the Greek scriptures translated Jesus' name from the Hebrew Yeshua/Yehoshua into the Greek "Iesous".


Cousin Josh. If he had only stuck with carpentry he would have lived longer and had a big family.

ruveyn



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05 Jul 2012, 9:07 am

Joker wrote:

Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


Jesus quoted scripture in perfect King James Version English.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
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05 Jul 2012, 11:24 am

ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:

Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


Jesus quoted scripture in perfect King James Version English.

ruveyn


Quite a feat, as the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons still spoke Proto-Low German, and without the Normon-French influence introduced in 1066. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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05 Jul 2012, 11:26 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:

Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


Jesus quoted scripture in perfect King James Version English.

ruveyn


Quite a feat, as the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons still spoke Proto-Low German, and without the Normon-French influence introduced in 1066. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Ask any Fundie. He will tell you the KJV is Word of God.

ruveyn



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05 Jul 2012, 11:50 am

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:

Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


Jesus quoted scripture in perfect King James Version English.

ruveyn


Quite a feat, as the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons still spoke Proto-Low German, and without the Normon-French influence introduced in 1066. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Ask any Fundie. He will tell you the KJV is Word of God.

ruveyn


(Sigh) I know.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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05 Jul 2012, 7:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Joker wrote:

Elah is the Aramaic Name for God Jesus spoke Aramaic so I call God Elah for that very reason.


Jesus quoted scripture in perfect King James Version English.

ruveyn


Quite a feat, as the ancestors of the Anglo-Saxons still spoke Proto-Low German, and without the Normon-French influence introduced in 1066. :lol:

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Ask any Fundie. He will tell you the KJV is Word of God.

ruveyn


(Sigh) I know.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


I don't read the KJV verison but I do own that version of the Bible :wink: