The US paradox

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adb
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23 Dec 2012, 3:59 pm

shrox wrote:

When I see people with weapons, I get a kind of aggressive feeling towards them. I feel they are a potential threat to me, and it triggers a bit of a fight response. The sight of an armed person also elitists a protective response in me in regards to those around me.

What makes them more of a threat to you than someone behind the wheel of a car? Either person has the ability to put an end to you pretty quickly. Is it that they make a conscious choice to carry a tool that serves only the function of a weapon? How are you going to protect people against someone who's armed if you aren't?

Really, we're talking about a difference in emotional response. When you see someone armed, you assume they are potentially hostile. When I see someone armed, I see someone who shares an interest of mine and can help me stop a crime if necessary.

adb
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23 Dec 2012, 4:03 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

I am afraid of motor vehicles. I avoid walking on the edge of pavements, I walk or take the train whenever possible. I am scared of people who drive too fast or have noisy cars. Ideally I'd like some kind of system that limits a car to the speed limit on a given road, and devices fitted to all cars to make them quieter. I am not learning to drive because I am terrified I will kill someone.

There is a difference between "making you uncomfortable" and "making you fear for your life, with justification".

When have I endorsed using guns to get my way?

What do you think banning something means? A ban is enforced. It's enforced using threat of violence, including with firearms.

You are obvously interested in forcing other people to do what you think is right and not do what you think is wrong. I have a problem with that.

The_Walrus
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23 Dec 2012, 4:08 pm

adb wrote:

How are you going to protect people against someone who's armed if you aren't?

I have years of self defence training behind me. I know how to disarm someone. Of course, I cannot stop someone with a sniper rifle, or someone who bursts into a room with a semi-automatic and sprays bullets everywhere, but those things don't happen nearly often enough for them to be of concern to me.

If I cannot get to someone to disarm them, I am unlikely to be able to react quick enough to shoot them.

Seabass
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23 Dec 2012, 4:21 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

adb wrote:

How are you going to protect people against someone who's armed if you aren't?

Last edited by Seabass on 23 Dec 2012, 4:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.

adb
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23 Dec 2012, 4:22 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

adb wrote:

How are you going to protect people against someone who's armed if you aren't?

They happen enough to matter to the people in Newtown, CT. If teachers were able to carry in school, we'd have a lot fewer dead children right now. Those children are far more important to me than your comfort.

The_Walrus
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23 Dec 2012, 4:24 pm

adb wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Nope. For example, we have a ban on selling alcohol to minors. The police don't threaten violence against off-licenses, pubs, or supermarkets.

Why are you against people doing what is right and not doing what is wrong?

adb
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23 Dec 2012, 4:29 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

adb wrote:

What happens if you ignore the ban and sell alcohol to minors? You get arrested. If you don't comply with being arrested, violence ensues. So yes, a ban is enforced with threat of violence.

What you think is right and what I think is right are two very different things. You think it's right for government to ban firearms. I think it's very wrong. I have a problem with you forcing me to comply with your definitions of right and wrong.

The_Walrus
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23 Dec 2012, 4:35 pm

If I accept your argument, then you must accept that it is wrong for you to force me to comply with your definitions of right and wrong?

I don't accept your argument though. Morality is not something that suits your whims or mine.

adb
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23 Dec 2012, 4:44 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

I'm not forcing you to comply with anything.

If you were subject to my definitions of right and wrong, you'd have the freedom to believe and do pretty much anything you like so long as you don't hurt other people or their property.

If I was subject to your definitions of right and wrong, I'd be a slave.

I'm going to keep my guns so I can make sure I'm never subject to your definitions.

The_Walrus
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23 Dec 2012, 4:47 pm

Not being allowed to own a gun is slavery now?

Raptor
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23 Dec 2012, 8:35 pm

The_Walrus wrote:

Not being allowed to own a gun is slavery now?

Well, it's what separates citizens from mere subjects.
If I have to explain then you wouldn't understand.....

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shrox
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23 Dec 2012, 8:39 pm

Raptor wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Not being allowed to own a gun is slavery now?

Well, it's what separates citizens from mere subjects.
If I have to explain then you wouldn't understand.....

That's pretty offensive as well as very narrow minded.

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23 Dec 2012, 8:46 pm

shrox wrote:

Raptor wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Not being allowed to own a gun is slavery now?

Well, it's what separates citizens from mere subjects.
If I have to explain then you wouldn't understand.....

That's pretty offensive as well as very narrow minded.

offensive how?
the reality is that in society some people have more rights than others,why sugur coat it

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shrox
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23 Dec 2012, 8:50 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

shrox wrote:

Raptor wrote:

The_Walrus wrote:

Not being allowed to own a gun is slavery now?

Well, it's what separates citizens from mere subjects.
If I have to explain then you wouldn't understand.....

That's pretty offensive as well as very narrow minded.

offensive how?
the reality is that in society some people have more rights than others,why sugur coat it

The idea that I need a gun, or else I am not a citizen. That's offensive.

Give us both guns and we can shoot each other.
Give us both knives and I'll bet I've got the edge on you, since I can throw and stick one and you probably cannot. But you could learn in about a week.

LKL
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23 Dec 2012, 9:05 pm

What separates citizens from subjects is the ability to participate in the governing of the society. While it is debatable how much participation we actually have in the American system right now, 'lack of guns' is not the problem.

Dox47
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23 Dec 2012, 9:08 pm

shrox wrote:

Give us both knives and I'll bet I've got the edge on you, since I can throw and stick one and you probably cannot. But you could learn in about a week.

Really? At a non-defined range, on a moving target, and with lethal or disabling effect? Cause I've got to tell you, I wouldn't want to be the guy that just chucked a knife at someone and missed, had it hit butt end first, or just inflicted a surface wound, and was then at the mercy of his opponent who was smart enough not to throw his weapon away...

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