Ground Offensive Launched in Gaza

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Hamas gets plenty of outside help, with higher support in terms of weapons and cash when Israel plays their war games. Iran had cut their financial support significantly over the past few years due some some disagreements, but now they are going to be bankrolling Hamas again.

Not to mention the fact that when 20% of the world's population is Muslim, bombing civilian Muslims is not going to make them more popular.

And what have their weapons got them besides attacked more? And why would Israel care about being popular among the Muslims of the world? They are already hated just for existing.

Their weapons have gotten the world's attention, which in turn has gotten them a sense of legitamacy, deserved or not.

As for the Muslim world, there were quite a few who have supported Israel in the past but no longer do. You should not paint an entire population with the same brush. There are plenty of different sects among Islam, and they do not all hate Israel just for existing any more than all Muslims hate the US. There were (and are) plenty of nations with Muslim majorities who label Hamas as a terrorist organization.
The Muslim population that has Israeli citizenship at one point overwhelmingly supported their government and the IDF. Even among the Palestinians just a few decades ago there was significantly less animosity, with plenty of them very pro-Israel. The more Israel enacts every accusation of their enemies, the more they solidify the world against them. Without the US veto power in the UN, they would already be in some serious hot water, considering the number of human rights violations and blatant violations of the Geneva conventions.
They should have torn down the wall and built a Super WalMart and put a Starbucks and McDonald's on every corner. Then expanded their infrastructure allowed them to build their economy. It is poverty, hunger, and a lack of health care that drives most of these people into acts of deperation, just as it is the driving factor behind the majority of the crime here in the US.

Can I just say? From an outrageous bigot like myself: fair play to the Kurds. They seem forwar thinking, relatively liberal and moderate... and they like Israel!

Of all people in the Middle East, the Kurds deserve their own country, but they live as oppressed minorities under the rule of people who hate them - including our ally Turkey.

I'm quite sure poverty exacerbates existing Palestinian issues, but it is not the root cause. They weren't satisfied with approximately half the land area, and ganged up on Israel with several Arab nations in 1968 to destroy it. This is their stated goal.

The Palestine Constitution drafted in 1968 did indeed state that the liberation of Palestine and removal of all colonial influences of Zionism as one of its goals. This was completely removed 20 years ago, in the Palestine Constitution of 1994 and the subsequent versions in 1996 and 2003. Please stop judging all Palestinians based on something written in 1968 or by the words of one (formerly) small extremist group.

Here is a link to the current Constitution of Palestine, adopted in 2003:

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Palestine_(2003)

Still in Hamas' charter. My point is that the lesson learned is to be more defensive, you can't trust a people dedicated to destroying your country.

Hamas and Palestine are still two different entities. I am not talking about Hamas, who I find to be deplorable violent extremists (while I understand the reasons, I detest the actions).
I am talking about Palestine, (which has a substantial Christian population, BTW) who has established a Constitution for the nation which does not at any point reference or condone the actions or beliefs of Hamas.
And as for trusting a people who are destroying their country, I think Israel has been much more effective on that front. Mosques, schools, the only power plant, refugee shelters, family homes (with families still inside), and last go around the IDF destroyed every single remaining factory and the last of their livestock production capability.

I'm just saying that every dead child creates a whole new family full of Hamas supporters. Every destroyed home creates a new household full of Hamas supporters. Every business destroyed creates a batch of newly unemployed Hamas supporters. Every mosque destroyed creates a congregation full of new Hamas supporters. Every school destroyed creates a class of children who will only have the education that Hamas brings to them. Every person who is denied medical treatment because every medical center and hospital has been destroyed creates yet another Hamas supporter. And as the more it happens, the less support Israel has and the more sympathy Hamas gets. You can talk about how they shouldn't support Hamas, but who else has actually done ANYTHING other than talk?

Israel may be destroying tunnels and eliminating rocket launch capabilities in the short term, but they are creating an entire generation of terrorists and eroding the last of the international support Israel had left. The only groups they are gaining ground with are the evangelicals here in the US and some of the evangelical Christian demographics in Africa (Nigeria and Uganda primarily).

I share your concern, but I don't think Israel's broad international support is in decline. Even Arab leaders seem to be growing tired of Palestinian terrorism against Israel.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/31/world ... srael.html

http://www.truth-out.org/news/item/2533 ... ar-on-gaza

And I think weve just hit upon the reason this conflict has gone on for so long. The fact that Israel's civilian casualty rate amounts to 75% means that their attacks are creating legions of people willing to support Hamas. Israel are creating the next generation of terrorists. These terrorists provide Israel's justification for continued attacks.

Only outside intervention will solve this issue. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 68800.html demonstrates that Israel is not a benevolent nation at all. Conversely Hamas have also demonstrated that they will never recognise Israel's right to exist.

Hamas can never be eradicated because it's existence is guaranteed by Israel's disregard for civilian life. Even if Israel were to alter its tactics Hamas would still be a force to be reckoned with because its existence is also guaranteed by Israel's presence. Because of this the conflict will be waged indefinitely unless either the Israeli's or the Palestinians cede their claim on the lands in question. This would have to be accomplished under threat or force and neither Israel no Palestine are in a position to do so.

Israel's approach seems to be terror and attrition. Targeting civilians creates terror and blockades and the disruption to the infrastructure caused by their attacks constitutes attrition. Why Israel feel the need to do this when the Palestinian war machine doesnt seem to be capable of even creating a comparable death toll is beyond me. One might argue that failure to do anything would give Hamas time to rally but this doesn't really work. Can someone explain the purpose of Israel's Military approach with regards to civilians. Without recourse to human shield arguments

Hamas fired 3,000+ unguided rockets at Israel. If Israel had no defenses they would happily kill Israeli civilians in large numbers. These people just don't like each other. Israel's goal may very well be the destruction of tunnels, or to teach a lesson. The US would certainly act if under fire and lesson teaching might well be on our agenda too.

The difference between the two is that Israel is a functioning nation with a political spectrum. There are limits to what they can do before the pendulum swings. The Palestinians just don't have a healthy system. They have one answer to all situations and the only possible option beyond that calls for more extremism. They have worn on the nerves of their neighbors themselves.

Palestine has tried more peceful means in the past. It is usually after rounds of peace talks with tentative agreements for Israel to stop building settlements in the West Bank, which they have only honored once (and then only for 10 months). Hamas has always been hostile, but they gain more and more support as time goes on. After the blockade began to punish Gaza for the actions of one comparatively small group, their support gained ground very quickly. The US sending billions in military aid, supplying weapons and ammo, and funding their military research makes the US more and more unpopular with the Palestinians and much of the rest of the Middle East.

Here is how the cycle generally goes:
1. Hamas (or another group) shoots off some rockets without bothering to aim at anything.
2. ALL Palestinians in Gaza are punished, including a substantial Christian minority (which lives peacefully along side their Muslim neighbors, BTW).
3. A cease-fire is negotiated between Palestine (NOT Hamas) and Israel, which is sometimes honored by Hamas.
4. Israel ignores all of the terms and conditions of the cease-fire except for the actual firing of weapons.
5. Palestinian leaders appeal to the international community, which largely supports them.
6. The US usesz its veto power on the UN security council to prevent anything from being done.
7. Hamas (and Islamic Jihad and other extremist groups) then issue demands and threats.
8. Israel either ignores them or uses it as justification for sweeping property seizures and imprisonments.
9. Hamas gains support.
10. Go to 1.

Turns out that Israel destroyed the last of Hamas' tunnels 13 hours ago according to the Jerusalem post.
The tunneling system was complex and highly sophisticated consisting of offensive defensive and smuggling routes. This will make rearming for Hamas extremely difficult, This plus the blockade and the destruction of infrastructure makes the situation in Palestine rather grave.

Last edited by Ectryon on 04 Aug 2014, 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

You could put the tunnels in with the response to ignored demands and threats (#7). You could throw the kidnappings in there, too.

I think Qatar is supporting Hamas more than Iran at the moment. You know, that country that the US sold $11 billion in weapons to around the same time as the most recent big fat check to the IDF.