exorcism

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the holocaust wasn't caused by religion. Unless you braoden the definition of religion to include any ideology--which is fine by me, because atheism and racism can also be called a religion in that case. Religion is simply a system of belief about who God and man is or isn't. Hitler decided the Jews were not people and that God isn't real. He claimed to be a Christian, but he also ascribed to Machievelli's philosophy of telling people what they want to hear, and he said this himself. Hitler persecuted Christians.

And saying religion caused 9-11 is like saying "movies are pornographic". Well of course there are pornographic movies. But saying movies are pornographic doesnt mean anything, just like saying religion causes violence doesn't mean anything. Some religions do. Some don't. Some peoples interpretations of non-violent religions do. But after it all, people are people and will use whatever they can as an excuse to do irrational things in order to have meaning in their lives.

But I can understand the inability to distinguish between different "false" religions. I do the same, I see Hinduism and Islam as both false religions, just as you would add Christianity in. The difference however is that I realize that Hindus dont' blow people up. Muslims do. Not all. But the ones that do use Islam as an excuse. I've never heard of a Hindu doing that.

One more point about violence and religion--the early Christians. Their whole message was NON-violence for the sake of their religion. They died willingly and passively. WHY? They knew their existence on earth was temporal, while heaven is eternal. Combine that with a message of peace and you've got something good that you could never get without religion. Jesus taught the forgiveness of enemies. So really, the claim that religion causes violence is so general and ignorant of the complexity of human emotions and rationality, that it can't be taken seriously. The most you can say is that a belief in God has the potential to cause violence. But that statement doesn't mean much, becuase so does a lack of a belief in God. Both are religions in a sense. So yes, religion causes violence. Meaning nothing more than that peoples beleifs about the world cause violence. So in the sense that religion means "beleiving in God", saying religion causes violence becomes pretty much meaningless.

sources?

i have sources that say that the holocaust was influenced by hitler's readings of martin luther's essay "on the jews and their lies".* luther of course formed the lutheran church and so his statements are, of course, linked with protestant christianity. also have sources saying that hitler believed in an active deity and not a remote, distant rationalist god.**


at most, hitler would complain about the weak nature of christianity but that's about it. he never persecuted christians, he supported multiple religions including the islamic religion and atheism. there's evidence of hitler working with both atheists and muslims most notable of muslims being amin al-husseini who was integral in influencing antisemitism in the modern islamist movement.




*William Shirer, The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich


**Richard Steigmann-Gall, The Holy Reich

Hitler was definitely an occult Humanist. On pages 127 thru 132 of The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich William Shirer summarized Hitler's view of life. He was Darwinian, using the survival of the fittest as his model for promoting the Aryan master race. He considered himself the Prometheus of mankind. Hitler wrote: "Thus the highest purpose of a folkish state is concern for the preservation of those original racial elements which bestow culture and create the beauty and dignity of a higher mankind." His highest object of devotion was the betterment of mankind through eugenics.

He said, "The folkish state ... must set race in the center of all life. It must take care to keep it pure ... It must see to it that only the healthy beget children; that there is only one disgrace: despite one's own sickness and deficiencies, to bring children into the world...." Obviously, he considered all non-Aryan races to be inferior. His plans for England was to wipe out all males and use the Aryan women as breeding stock.

As you can see, his plans went way beyond Martin Luther's hatred of the Jews. And it certainly had no Christian overtones ...

On pages 324 thru 333, William explains how Hitler subjugated the Christian denominations. I expect if Hillary gets in she will find this section very handy.

Hitler was a Roman Catholic, baptized into that religio-political institution as an infant in Austria. He became a communicant and an altar boy in his youth and was confirmed as a "soldier of Christ" in that church. Its worst doctrines never left him. He was steeped in its liturgy, which contained the words "perfidious jew." This hateful statement was not removed until 1961. "Perfidy" means treachery.

In his day, hatred of Jews was the norm. In great measure it was sponsored by two major religions of Germany, Catholicism, and Lutheranism. He greatly admired Martin Luther, who openly hated the Jews. Luther condemned the Catholic Church for its pretensions and corruption, but he supported the centuries of papal pogroms against the Jews. Luther said, "The Jews deserve to be hanged on gallows, seven times higher than ordinary thieves," and "We ought to take revenge on the Jews and kill them." "Ungodly wretches" he called the Jews in his book Table Talk.

Hitler seeking power, wrote in Mein Kampf, "... I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews. I am doing the Lord's work." Years later, when in power, he quoted those same words in a Reichstag speech in 1938.

Three years later he informed General Gerhart Engel: "I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so." He never left the church, and the church never left him. Great literature was banned by his church, but his miserable Mein Kampf never appeared on the index of Forbidden Books. He was not excommunicated or even condemned by his church. Popes, in fact, contracted with Hitler and his fascist friends Franco and Mussolini, giving them veto power over whom the pope could appoint as a bishop in Germany, Spain, and Italy. The three thugs agreed to surtax the Catholics of these countries and send the money to Rome in exchange for making sure the state could control the church.

Those who would make Hitler an atheist should turn their eyes to history books before they address their pews and microphones. Acclaimed Hitler biographer John Toland explains his heartlessness as follows: "Still a member in good standing of the Church of Rome despite the detestation of its hierarchy, he carried within him its teaching that the Jews was the killer of god. The extermination, therefore, could be done without a twinge of conscience since he was merely acting as the avenging hand of god. ..."

Hitler's Germany amalgamated state with church. Soldiers of the vermacht wore belt buckles inscribed with the following: "Gott mit uns" (God is with us). His troops were often sprinkled with holy water by the priests. It was a real Christian country whose citizens were indoctrinated by both state and church and blindly followed all authority figures, political and ecclesiastical.

Hitler, like some of the today's politicians and preachers, politicized "family values." He liked corporeal punishment in home and school. Jesus prayers became mandatory in all schools under his administration. While abortion was illegal in pre-Hitler Germany, he took it to new depths of enforcement, requiring all doctors to report to the government the circumstances of all miscarriages. He openly despised homosexuality and criminalized it. If past is prologue, we know what to expect if liberty becomes license.

I always understood Hitler et.al. wanted to purify the German and European peoples/race and that they were not opposed to the Jewish religion. The jews as a race were targetted, along with gypsies, slavs (and also homosexuals, mentally ret*d, etc. without prejudice to their race, creed or colour)

But would that be what he really thought, or what he thought the people wanted to hear.

Would he have had as much support if he said "We should purify our race and kill anyone how doesn't have blue eyes"?

I don't know. I am just a skeptic.

Icidentally for anyone at college/uni, there is a great article in "The Accounting Review" by Watts and Zimmerman called "The Market for Excuses". IMO everyone should read it. It basically says if someone (government, corporations etc) has a demand (in the economic sense) there will be academics who will supply that demand with an excuse. "Spin" or excuses follow the laws of supply and demand.

you're confusing hitler with himmler. himmler was the occultist.

So in other words he supported religion helped him achieve his goals. Sounds more like a Machiavelli than someone who really was a Christian to me. Hitlers religion was basically social and biological darwinism applied to a race based secular humanism. Hitler was obsessed with German and Norse mythology as well. His God was basically the German race and culture. His beliefs align much more with Nietzche than Christ, the strong willed super man.

and the thousands of christians that were sent to concentration camps would beg to differ about him not persecuting Christians. Hitler persecuted anyone who did not fit with his new world order vision. This included true christians who follow the true biblical message of universal love of ALL mankind, and who put their faith in a JEWISH carpenter. The Bible is the story of the Jews after all, so a true Christian is going to support the Jews.

I suppose to a non-christian and especially someone opposed to religion, the distinction between a christian and non-christian is not that important. Its very easy to say, well Hitler said he believed in Jesus, so he was a Christian. As a Christian myself I see Christianity as a bit more than that. It takes a lot more than just following Luther because he was anti-semitic. Hitler was a pragmatist and used Christianity as a MEANS, not an end, to his religion of race based darwinist secular humanism. I don't care if Hitler read Luther. I don't care if he was confirmed in the Catholic Church. I don't care if he gave speeches on Jesus and God. Machiavelli would have given him a pat on the back for using religion for his own ends.


Hitler was more like the anti-christ than anything. He made blasphemous claims, and I would expect the anti-christ to use and twist Christianity for himself. Not that Hitler was "the" anti-christ, but the devil was probably attempting to set himself up that way. Think about his main goal after all, the persecution of Gods people. I beleive there to have been demonic influence in Hitler. Satan often disguises himself in ways to appear Christian. Satan is the great deciever, he will say anything to lead people astray. Hitlers actions and words show him to be aligned with the devil more than Christ, so its pretty clear to me he was in NO way a Christian.

In response to the Penn and Teller, yes the woman and the new age guy are full of it. The guy pastor I think got a bad rap. Idon't know if he was completely legit or not, but many are. Penn and Teller took a caricature of what real exorcism is and made fun of it, even though if they had seen some of the stuff that go on they woul certainly have a hard time doing that. I have personally been attacked by Demon and had to fight it off myself. It is very real and very scary.

I'm mentally ill; I'm full of demonic thoughts (which is quite cool honestly -- eek! The demon is taking over!): do I need an exorcism?

Mental illness is real. There is a physical aspect to our brains. Every mental illness is not a demon and I am careful to be skeptical of every case. But I also beleive that a lot of what we call mental illness involves demons. Physical symptoms, such as in the brain, do not automatically mean a physical cause. The body and the spirit work in conjunction, so one influences the other. For instance, going for a run, drinking alcohol, or laying in a hammock are all physical things, but they can lift ones spirit. Likewise, if ones spirit/mind chooses to be happy, physical pain will not bother a person much. This shows that body and mind are inseperable. Demonic influence can have an effect therefore without being just a demon coming after someone.

I agree entirely. A good book on the subject is Christian Counseling and Occultism by Dr. Kurt Koch. He calls for a differential diagnosis of mental disorders before attempting deliverance. But he also points out that psychosis and medical problems often come down the generations of those who were involved in the occult or magic. I have found this to be true.

I have a odd theory when it come to religion and science.

Any physicists will probably tell you that there is a very good chance that subatomic particles exist that we know nothing about.

Also many theories exist that allow for a 5th dimension. Traveling along this dimension may cause you to enter a type of parallel universe.

What if the various spiritual manifestations are constructs of unknown subatomic particles. These particles could be capable of affecting physical matter at such a fundamental level we can't detect the difference it with modern instruments. They are also capable of traveling along a 5th dimensional axis thus causing heaven and hell to effectively be parallel universes normal matter cannot enter. These constructs could easily mimic the properties of life, and essentially they are life, perhaps in a more pure form then organic life.

Unfortunately these theories are completely unprovable in the modern world. But perhaps some day....

A theory without any evidence is called a faith .....

Utter trollop.

I believe that exorcism is real