Feminism: Enough is ENOUGH

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Yeah girl just beat that man because hes a man girl power!She must be a feminist yeah beating up a man is ok!

I don't know what to think about feminism. I really don't. I'm struggling with my feelings about it.

Until a couple of years ago I would have said that I was unquestionably a supporter of it (I'm male btw) but a few events since then, in particular the fall out from the Elliot Rodger incident and Gamergate have made me question my opinion.

The personal politics I've held all my life tell me that not supporting feminism is wrong but my self esteem is (and has always been) pitifully low and constantly reading articles that tell me that I am privileged, that my problems are invalid and that I'm a horrible person is making me feel that I can't continue to support at least the popular internet variant of feminism and retain a belief in myself. As it write it this seems selfish but is anyone really not selfish?

Elliot Rodger was undoubtedly a vile individual with multiple problems but the backlash was against all men. Gamergate seems to be founded on some questionable (being polite) allegations and the death threats being thrown around are deplorable but again the backlash against all (white, nerdy) males by gaming sites surprised me by its savagery.

It does feel to me, as others have mentioned above, that geeky males are being disproportionately targeted for criticism while real abuses ranging from the ghastly, like Female Genital Mutilation, to the simply unacceptable, like cat-calling in the street, receive far less attention. (Then again, I do frequent geeky websites and events so am I getting a skewed vision of events? Please enlighten me). This to me feels like bullying the weak. I've had my fair share of that and it just makes me want to disengage.

Some of these internet activists do seem to want to shut down debate and are lightening quick to throw around stereotypes - instantly assuming that any dissenter is a fedora wearing, neckbearded brony who lives in their parent's basement etc etc (oh, and an atheist as well now - how has atheism got in there?). "MRA" is now a toxic term. I have always hated this behaviour from the right and now it seems to be coming from the left. I never thought I'd be saying that.

The same people also seem to be keen to say that men's problems are invalid and that just makes me want to withdraw from the debate. For example, I have always been quite hung up about my own appearance. As a result I can say that I absolutely have not ever commented (either positively or negatively) on a woman's appearance in her presence. Quite a lot of people (and I think it's fair to say most of them women) have negatively commented/flat out ridiculed my appearance to my face. I know that m girlfriend has experienced similar and this probably mostly from males. We don't engage in a competition to see who has it worse - there's no point in re-enacting the Monty Python "Four Yorkshiremen" sketch- instead we comfort one another when it happens and agree that this behaviour is wrong. I am happy to stand beside any feminist who has the same view but I can't support any who say that bad things only happen to women.

I think some of the problems caused result from the way things are put. For example, one of #Yesallmen tweets was something along the lines of "I don't owe you anything - not even a smile". My first thought was that the woman tweeting meant that she was not prepared to acknowledge me (as an office colleague or neighbour or whatever) if she met me in the street. I thought that that was pretty arrogant. When I thought about it more I came to think that the author meant that she would not respond if some a**hole in the street told her to "give us a smile, love". I can totally get behind that.

In short then, I've always been a liberal and I acknowledge that there are multiple real problems for women. I will stand beside anyone who is trying to fix these. I know I've been awkward and immature around women but I'm willing to listen and learn. I've never been threatening or cruel and I'm not the Big Bad. I have problems of my own. Accept this and we can all work together. If activists continue to deny it though and I think I won't be the only liberal who rethinks their position.

I support feminism as a humanist, but any feminism, that positions itself around the concept of "the patriarchy" is way out of date, and need to get with the times, and be more realistic. Women are as misogynistic as men sometimes. many of the pressures, and expectations on women come from women, and the theories linking even these back to men are unproven disproportional.

I suggest to ny political movement, be careful not to make people feel think they are walking on egg shells, or under suspicion, when there is no reason to assume mal intent, this is not good advocacy how to win people over. This advice is not specific to feminism though, it applies to anything.

Sometime important issues can get lost, in amongst the maze of "correctness". I think that is why there is such a blowback against these movements. Of course you do get the usual bitter resentful people, who feel entitled, and are objecting merely on the basis that then need something to blame it all on.

Excellent post, and one that any feminists wondering about their less than enthusiastic reception should pay attention to.

This is likely to be triggering:

On this topic... I got involved in this conversation online- specifically regarding Shia LaBeouf and his personal story of how he had been raped. The conversation revolved around definitions of rape but also "OMG MEN CAN'T BE RAPED"- to which I flat out rebuttled hard against.

Because it's absolutely not true. I made some pretty strong statements and because "internet" it got more attention than I expected. I made the first commentaries in November and am still getting people "liking" and responding to the commentary and visiting my facebook and following me.

I'm only sharing this experience because, unbeknownst to me? It's apparently completely a bizarre notion that men can experience rape. And that is really sad and unfourtunate. I'm really... I don't know the word, sad I guess that people are set on this one idea of what a violation is or can be or who it can be perpetrated against.

Sexual assault is often perpetrated more against women, but it happens against men WAY more than anyone wants to admit. Because of that, there are virtually no supports for them, they are shamed by other men and women when it happens, and it is pretty much NEVER talked about.

If someone claims to be a feminist, they should not be ignoring this truth. ...but so many do.

I also really really appreciate 0_equals_true's post discussing feminism in the context of being a humanist. That's basically where I am at, but I can't yet claim humanism because I don't feel informed enough. Falloy did a good job of bringing up the Elliot Rodgers issue in a way that I wasn't able to. I am having a hard time explaining. But Elliot Rodgers isn't representative of the real issues that Feminism is necessary for... he certainly had issues with women, but it was also a manifestation of a precarious hold on reality and some distortions.

Comparing all these men you have been having this discussion with to ER isn't appropriate because ER represents such an extreme but also because these men have done nothing to indicate they are killers- yet to suggest one might need to protect themselves in the context of that comparison is to suggest that any man in this discussion who challenges specific ideology does have those propensities. Enough to take explicit precautions. But that in turn makes feminism and people who wish to explore and discuss and promote it seem extreme themselves.

That might have been way too many words, but I am having trouble being succinct lately so apologies

[also, I get that I mentioned very specific commentary, but I'm aware of what I present online ]

THANK YOU! Finally someone who gets it! Lets not forget the ridicul men face who are raped and abused by women it was very difficult for me and I had to have a female witness witness the abuse in order to get a restraining order against my EX for the police to be convinced that this woman is dangerous and abusive!

Maybe its time men rise up and put rad fems in their place like this guy lol!

I have often thought the best way to go about dealing with extreme, radical elements of any movement that don't actually represent a movement is to ignore them or to disengage from dealing with them as much as possible. That is: you don't try to "put them in their place" or "knock them down a peg" or "debate" or anything because often times extremists and radicals are beyond reason. I have found this, personally, in most situations. Others may have different personal experiences and that is fine.

There is also a clear difference between those who are very passionate about their stance or goal or belief and radicals or extremists. The former will be willing to let you get a word in edgewise and you can defuse a tense conversation [which can happen regardless of intent at times] the latter will often escalate and escalate a situation with the intention to prove a point- and it has little to do with errors in communication, passion or being legitimately upset. [to be clear, I am not referring to anyone in this current conversation as radical or extreme, I don't see it personally]

In refusing to engage the way they want, though, radical or extreme individuals will use that as an excuse to say they are not heard, are being silenced, etc etc etc, and often this behavior will temporarily escalate if you persist by refusing to engage. Refusing to respond in a reactive manner or rejecting intentional escalation may also do this. [this is a common pattern with toddlers also actually- if you ignore a tantrum it will initially get worse before getting better in the short term, in the longer term a behavior gets worse before starting extinction]
[^^^edit, clarity]

I know that's kind of a long, meandering rant. But I think part of the problem in kind of a different sense is that when dealing with people who we even refer to extremists or non-representative is we still consider what they say relevant. Relevant to that movement/cause/ideal and so engage with them or discuss their actions as relevant and as though they have the same agenda as the majority but I am not so sure that is really the case most of the time.

To be more specific:
I mean, I can't consider someone who is an outspoken hater of men to have the same agenda as the majority of feminists. Or someone who consistently suggests that people who challenge them or don't agree hate them because of their gender, not because they could possibly be wrong or because critical thinking is pretty important.
They don't really ride the same bus. They are off having their own little party.

A femnazi paradise, where all men are separated from women and in cages a total gender segregation! The irony is a lot of the women secretly want to mate with the male but rad femnazism forbids it!These females crave the male and cannot resist for their instincts to mate take hold as well as their maternal instincts not even feminism has power over mother nature!Naural instincts are much stronger than any political movement and nature wins every time, feminism cannot dictate nature it will always lose to nature!

But…but…AO, don't you get it? Sex is not just about mating or reproduction. We have control over whether we reproduce or not, and sex is more about pleasure than LTR "mating." Women can just use men for pleasure and then simply discard them if they so choose. Please explain to me what exactly is wrong with that?

is the reverse cool too?

No, you patriarchal pig. Men obviously possess greater muscle mass and physical strength than women. For a man to just use a woman like that would be rape. Maybe it would do a man some good to know what that's like, but at any rate, you can't rape the willing. If a man really objects, he's strong enough to fend off a woman.

are you joking? or being sarcastic?

What would you prefer?

either to the option that is neither and serious. o.O