People first, God second. Should people put themselves above

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GnosticBishop
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25 Oct 2016, 10:21 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

drlaugh wrote:

Many good points.
A man I know little about (Luther , Martin not Lex) had a few things about the Church)

Thanks.

To be sure, Marty was hardly perfect or godly. He drank way too much, he scalded his opponents with intemperate written abuse, and in his later years as his mental health followed his physical decline, he began writing indefensible Antisemitic trash that unfortunately was resurrected by the Third Reich, and by Antisemites today. Still, the Luther we Lutherans revere was the brave, defiant man of earlier years who came to understand he - and all of us - are saved not through placating an angry God, but through the sacrifice and grace of a loving God.

Yet he was against sacrifice of the Jesus type as well as the indulgences type.

To count on the immoral sacrifice of Jesus is to put an immoral condition between you and God.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3P1YplwPzxQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H_qnsTr7I04

Regards
DL

Well, if you, or that guy who made the second video, knew anything about Luther, you'd know he believed that God's grace was only possible through the sacrifice of Christ. In fact, the buying of indulgences was the complete opposite of Lutheran theology of universal atonement unearned by us.
Before quoting anymore scripture, you should remember that the Good Book warns us that the Devil can quote scripture perfectly.

Sure but your bible also tells you to ---

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

So are you ready to test whether substitutionary atonement is moral or not?

I have a good argument of my own on this but let me skip to the bottom line to see if you agree with it or not.

Having another innocent person suffer for the wrongs you have done, --- so that you might escape responsibility for having done them, --- is immoral.

My proof is rather biblical but be careful as perhaps Satan wrote these.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

Deuteronomy 24:16 (ESV) "Fathers shall not be put to death because of their children, nor shall children be put to death because of their fathers. Each one shall be put to death for his own sin.

Ezekiel 18:20 (ESV) The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

The declaration which says that God visits the sins of the fathers upon the children is contrary to every principle of moral justice. [Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason]

A sacrifice is synonymous with a ransom or bribe.

Psa 49 7
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Regards
DL

I think you just obstinately don't want to understand that God chose to become an innocent who suffered death for humankind. That's the difference between punishing some person innocent of wrongdoing when that person is resistant to being punished, and the voluntary choice Christ had made to be punished in our place.

So your only reply is to lie to me. Ok.

1Peter 1:20 0 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.

Being chosen is not the same as volunteering.

Even if Jesus would have volunteered, your trying to profit from the punishment of an innocent man in your stead is still immoral.

As Ingersoll said; 'no man would be fit for heaven who would consent that an innocent person should suffer for his sin.'

Regards
DL

Kraichgauer
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25 Oct 2016, 12:09 pm

^^^
Yes, as Christ and God are the same, he chose to die, he was not just chosen.
And Ingersoll was a militant atheist who would say anything to run down Christian belief, so his opinion on the matter doesn't carry much weight on the matter.

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drlaugh
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25 Oct 2016, 3:54 pm

Shalom, Praising God in the sunlight and storm.

People even my best friend have "let me down."

God never has. Though I was mad through things like death of my parents and later baby where the pain was indescribable I praise and love God.

In my youth after reading things like the Prayer of St. Francis, I though God was Co-dependent.

God first. I'm not trying to change anyone, just sharing my experiences.

Shalom.

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Kraichgauer
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25 Oct 2016, 4:07 pm

drlaugh wrote:

I had not known you had lost a child, for which I'm very sorry. I don't know if my faith could survive that.

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drlaugh
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26 Oct 2016, 4:06 pm

It took time and feeling the roller coaster of pain.

Also a few face to face friends that accept me from serious to silly.
One got me a book The Velveteen Rabbit. Can't figure out why he picked that book or why it touched my heart but it did.

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GnosticBishop
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04 Nov 2016, 10:48 am

Kraichgauer wrote:

So God can choose to die. Ok.

You attack the messenger, Ingersoll, while ignoring the message.

You know you are following a corrupt policy when you are forced to attack the messenger instead of the message.

Pity is all I feel for delusional fools.

Regards
DL

Kraichgauer
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04 Nov 2016, 11:01 am

GnosticBishop wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Yes, God can choose to die.
I respect your beliefs, so please, respect mine, as they aren't doing you any harm.

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GnosticBishop
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04 Nov 2016, 1:57 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Yes, God can choose to die.
I respect your beliefs, so please, respect mine, as they aren't doing you any harm.

If your belief system was harmless, then Christianity would not have had to grow by the sword instead of good deeds.

Ignore the harm your creed continues to do with it's homophobic and misogynous ways.

Ignoring the immorality of your own creed and shutting your eyes to the harm it does is how evil grows.

Regards
DL

Kraichgauer
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04 Nov 2016, 9:41 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

Kraichgauer wrote:

Yes, God can choose to die.
I respect your beliefs, so please, respect mine, as they aren't doing you any harm.

My faith is my own, not the property of those who had long ago misused it. And more, my faith, I believe as a Lutheran, is a gift given to me by God.

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envirozentinel
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05 Nov 2016, 12:41 pm

Dear GnosticBishop, not all branches of Christianity grew by the sword. Some grew their message with compassion, and had pure motives for advancing their faith.

In fact many of them were the victims of persecution.

Religion can certainly bring out either the best or the worst in people, depending on their motives for why they believe as they do!

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GnosticBishop
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05 Nov 2016, 3:45 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:

[

My faith is my own, not the property of those who had long ago misused it. And more, my faith, I believe as a Lutheran, is a gift given to me by God.

So you think it moral to accept a gift from your genocidal son murdering God, even though he has to murder an innocent man to give you that salvific gift.

Satan likes that trait in immoral Christians.

Regards
DL

GnosticBishop
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05 Nov 2016, 3:50 pm

envirozentinel wrote:

All true but that does not take away from the fact that they generally and historically used the sword instead of good deeds to grow Christianity and Islam.

Are you as quick to forgive and love Hitler after knowing that he did some good deeds as well but like the religions stated, he did a lot more evil than good.

If not quick to forgive Hitler, why the double standard?

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DL

RetroGamer87
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05 Nov 2016, 4:02 pm

GnosticBishop wrote:

So you think it moral to accept a gift from your genocidal son murdering God, even though he has to murder an innocent man to give you that salvific gift.

Hey, you're right. God did have to murder an innocent man :chin:

When you think about it, Christianity is a religion based on human sacrifice.

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GnosticBishop
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05 Nov 2016, 4:12 pm

RetroGamer87 wrote:

GnosticBishop wrote:

So you think it moral to accept a gift from your genocidal son murdering God, even though he has to murder an innocent man to give you that salvific gift.

Hey, you're right. God did have to murder an innocent man :chin:

When you think about it, Christianity is a religion based on human sacrifice.

Correct.

Take Jesus and his salvific human sacrifice out of Christianity and you have no Christianity.

You would have more people with decent morals though, --- who do not have to eat Jesus' body parts or drink his blood in their perverted ceremonies.

Yummy that. Not.

Regards
DL

Grischa
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05 Nov 2016, 4:12 pm

I am very sorry to read about your loss Dr Laugh!

This is Christianity for me: it restores hope, it revives dreams.
In the end: it revives lives.
Revival is one of the works of God that is very prominent.
Gnosticism, did it ever revive a life?

GnosticBishop
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05 Nov 2016, 4:41 pm

Grischa wrote:

Yes. Many more than Christianity has.

Compare those numbers to the numbers Christianity has murdered when they chose to grow their religion with the sword instead of good deeds.

"Revival is one of the works of God that is very prominent."

Really. Name any living person that can show he was revived by your God.

You might remember though that your God would have been the one taking that life before giving it back.

Your God was a murderer from Eden on up when he murdered A & E by keeping them away from the tree of life that would have kept them alive.

Would you do such a vile thing to your children?

If not, why would you follow such a satanic God who would?

Regards
DL

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