That slippery word "woke"

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28 Oct 2023, 9:37 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:

Apologies if this link has already been posted, but I've not noticed it here. The source is slightly left-leaning according to some, mostly it confines itself to a fairly sober description of what seems to have been going on, with lots of statements by politicians. It makes sense, to me at any rate, so for now I'm giving it my tentative approval and am considering adopting it as the best description of what's going on with this woke thing:

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congre ... e-n1264811

If anybody can comment on it sensibly in without falling into the trap of using rhetorical tricks and adding put-downs, I for one would be interested in hearing what they have to say.

I met up with my Trump supporting friend today, but we got so absorbed in jamming together and catching up with each other's experiences that I forgot to ask him what he thinks woke is. I'll try again next time.

Agreed, the article you linked to is a good one.

Some excerpts:

Quote:

The word has appeared in dozens of Republican speeches, tweets and other statements of late. Republicans said it is less a coordinated messaging push and more of an instinctive sense that the label would work as shorthand to denigrate a progressive worldview — and it's a word they're hearing from their voters, too, as it buzzes around conservative media.

Yet lawmakers and operatives who spoke to NBC News varied in how they define the idea, while others said they didn't know much about "wokeness" at all.

.. and ...

Quote:

The aide added that anti-woke messaging is "everywhere now" because "it kind of works to say it."

"And I don't think people maybe exactly know why," this person said. "It's just like you see something working and you're just going to keep going with it."

...and ...

Quote:

Woke," which has a long history in Black culture, was propelled into the mainstream in 2014 by activists protesting after Michael Brown, a Black teenager, was shot and killed by police in Ferguson, Missouri. "Stay woke" was a warning to be vigilant as Black Lives Matter protests were met with considerable police force. It evolved to encapsulate a broader social justice mantra — to be "woke" is now defined as to be cognizant of racial and social injustices.

Among conservatives, "woke" has been adopted as term of derision for those who hold progressive social justice views. In particular, the word's right-wing connotation implies a "woke" person or entity is being performative or phony. It's directly linked to language like "political correctness" and "cancellation" — which are also at the forefront of conservative messaging.

Candis Watts Smith, a co-author of the book "Stay Woke: A People's Guide to Making All Black Lives Matter," said the idea of wokeness "is about freedom, justice, equality, access to voting."

"When people talk about being woke or becoming woke, they're talking about being well-informed and well aware of systemic oppression and injustice," said Smith, a political science and African American studies professor at Penn State University. "And so it's an odd critique on Republicans' and conservatives' part to suggest that being woke is a bad thing."

But, she said, conservatives "are actually expert at weaponizing language."

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29 Oct 2023, 12:39 pm

I totally agree that woke is all too often is used to criticize whatever MAGA’s don’t like and a code word to express bigoted opinions. But what articles like the above that note the hijacking of word fail to mention is the middle step. It was activists themselves that expanded the term from being hyperaware of things so you can see racism that most won’t see to a general view of how America has always worked and does work. A part of the left for years has been inventing terms, altering the meaning of terms for weaponization purposes in ways that people felt was way too much if not offensive. What the right has done is do what they did “better” and they do not like it.

Personally I am just sick of the euphemism treadmill. Can’t say “ret*d” a word that is an insult or a descriptor depending on context. While n****r is terrible in most contexts it should be acceptable when quoting someone. They said “n****r” not “N-Word” and not “a racial slur”. I am glad the Autistic community has continued to use “Autism” despite it both becoming an insult and generally being misunderstood. I am glad it is still acceptable to use “Nazi” despite the term being misused for weaponization purposes for as long as I can remember.

As far as “woke” is concerned it is very possible that in 5 years “woke” will have gone the way of “Negro” a former acceptable term now considered racist. At that point I will have to decide if that lost cause is the hill I choose to die on. I used to use “SJW” a term that describes a similar world view to what “woke” describes. But it also describes a fragility that belies the persistence that “woke” people have demonstrated over and over again.

As of now there are still well educated anti MAGA’s that use the term to describe a world view. I have posted some of these. At the moment I'm not giving in to the hijackers.

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30 Oct 2023, 2:51 am

Misslizard wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

Misslizard wrote:

ToughDiamond wrote:

MushroomPrincess wrote:

Man, this board is nuts sometimes

Can't say I disagree with that. I often suspect a few paranoid symptoms in political debate.

Wouldn't it be great if all the posts here were respectful? Then we could have an open-minded conversation and learn from each other about the topic. But it's no good my kicking against the pricks.

Back on topic, I'm still making up my mind about this woke thing. Hard to distinguish the truth from the propaganda. I don't hear the term a lot in the UK. Maybe I'll try and get some of my redneck friends here in Arkansas to tell me what they think. I'll wager they see it as a dirty word, like they do socialism.

I’m from Arkansas.We hate all forms of government.

Wow, it's a small world :-)

So do I, but here in Sharp County a lot of them seem to love Trump, though maybe they see him as a necessary evil. I saw the election banners outside their houses, and one guy even had a Trump calendar. I don't discuss politics with them for fear of being lynched, but I thought I'd risk asking them what they think of woke.

I rode around with anti trump stickers here in the Ozarks.No problem.
My ex had family from Evening Shade so I’m familiar with the area .
Woke would be a strange word to discuss.I wouldn’t go at it directly and I wouldn’t be worried about lynching over it.
At this time I see no election banners for anyone.We hate them all, especially Sarah Sanders.Possible land grab in the Buffalo watershed so government is not our friend.

I know you're not talking about the TV show Evening Shade, but I loved that show. My favorite episodes were the one where Wood, Harlan and Herman were stranded in the woods naked, and the one where the couple got married in the gas station and the vows were the song "Say You Say Me".

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30 Oct 2023, 3:07 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

I totally agree that woke is all too often is used to criticize whatever MAGA’s don’t like and a code word to express bigoted opinions.

Since you've posted this in my thread, I will respond.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

But what articles like the above that note the hijacking of word fail to mention is the middle step. It was activists themselves that expanded the term from being hyperaware of things so you can see racism that most won’t see to a general view of how America has always worked and does work.

Actually, as far as I am aware, neither Black Lives Matter activists nor the white leftists who originally lifted the term from BLM ever used "woke" to refer to a specific belief system. As far as I am aware, before the term got hijacked either by right wingers or by moderate/liberal critics of BLM, people did not say "I am woke," in the same way that one might say "I am a socialist," "I am an anarchist," or even "I am an anti-racist." Instead, "woke" was always either an exhortation ("Stay woke!") or a compliment, like saying that a person is "aware" or "smart."

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Personally I am just sick of the euphemism treadmill. Can’t say “ret*d” a word that is an insult or a descriptor depending on context. While n****r is terrible in most contexts it should be acceptable when quoting someone. They said “n****r” not “N-Word” and not “a racial slur”. I am glad the Autistic community has continued to use “Autism” despite it both becoming an insult and generally being misunderstood. I am glad it is still acceptable to use “Nazi” despite the term being misused for weaponization purposes for as long as I can remember.

It is one thing to cling to a word whose basic meaning everyone agrees on, as a descriptor, even if the word is also used as a slur.

It is quite another to cling to a word that is as intrinsically ambiguous as "woke."

Here is an analogy: Suppose that the members of some political movement X (which could be left, right, or neither -- doesn't really matter for this analogy) were exhorting each other to "Be smart!" Suppose then that the members of some allied political movement Y also started exhorting each other to "Be smart!"

Suppose then that critics of movements X+Y noticed this and started using "smart" in a sarcastic way, to mean "those people who think they are so smart, but really aren't." Suppose then that some critics of movements X+Y started claiming that "smart," or "smartism," was a specific political ideology, which some of these critics then defined as the entirety of the aims/beliefs of movements X+Y, while other critics defined it as just some especially objectionable aspects of X+Y. Suppose then that one of the two major political parties seized upon both "smart" and "smartism" as buzzwords, not caring about any distinction between different ideas of what the ideology of "smartism" consists of, but just seizing upon the words "smart" and "smartism" as a politically effective emotional appeal, say, to anti-intellectual populism.

Hopefully, to most readers, the very idea of using a word like "smart" or "smartism" to refer to a political ideology one disagrees with would seem ridiculous. Hopefully it would seem even more ridiculous for the more politically moderate critics of whatever they call "smartism" to keep using the words "smart" and "smartism" and insist that their definitions are the correct ones.

One difference between "smart" and "woke" is that "smart," as an adjective, is standard English, whereas "woke," as an adjective, is AAVE. Hence I suspect that the mass emotional appeal of the word "woke," as a put-down, is partly due to anti-Black racism, rather than being due just to anti-intellectual populism, as in the hypothetical case of "smart." I'm not saying that anti-Black racism is necessarily the basis of its appeal to you, or to anyone else in particular, but I strongly suspect that it's part of the basis of its appeal to many people.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 30 Oct 2023, 5:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ASPartOfMe
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30 Oct 2023, 3:25 pm

People say “I am Autistic”. We did not coin that term. We found elements of it relatable and expanded it. Same thing with “stay woke”. What was meant was expanded. Others decided it was something real and put it down to paper.

“ is partly due to anti-Black racism”

I covered that “a code word to express bigoted opinions”. I said “bigoted” instead of “racist” to cover transphobia and the like.

As far as clinging to the term I discussed that.
“ As far as “woke” is concerned it is very possible that in 5 years “woke” will have gone the way of “Negro” a former acceptable term now considered racist. At that point I will have to decide if that lost cause is the hill I choose to die on. I used to use “SJW” a term that describes a similar world view to what “woke” describes. But it also describes a fragility that belies the persistence that “woke” people have demonstrated over and over again.

As of now there are still well educated anti MAGA’s that use the term to describe a world view. I have posted some of these. At the moment I'm not giving in to the hijackers.”

Related
In another thread the subject of the term “liberal” came up. After conservatives weaponized that term liberals gave it up if favor of “progressive”. It kind of worked out because “progressive” evolved over the years. Maybe “liberal” also would have evolved who knows.

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30 Oct 2023, 8:36 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

People say “I am Autistic”. We did not coin that term. We found elements of it relatable and expanded it.

"Autism" is a technical term with a canonical definition, to be found in the DSM. That definition has evolved over the years, thanks in part to interaction between the professional establishment and both autistic adults and parents of autistic children.

The names of many political ideologies also have canonical definitions, based on the writings of their founders and most influential adherents.

"Woke" has no such canonical definition. There is no "wokeness manifesto" or anything similar.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Same thing with “stay woke”. What was meant was expanded. Others decided it was something real and put it down to paper.

For reasons I've already explained at great length, the history of the word "woke" is, in crucial ways, utterly unlike the history of the word "autism."

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Related
In another thread the subject of the term “liberal” came up. After conservatives weaponized that term liberals gave it up if favor of “progressive”.

You are misconstruing the history of the word "liberal." Liberals have not given up the word "liberal" in response to conservative backlash.

What has happened is that leftists -- people to the left of "liberal" -- have become much more visible than they were before, thanks to social media. "Progressive" has therefore become popular as an umbrella term encompassing both left-liberals and people further to the left.

Conservatives have long tended to conflate liberals with leftists, but they are distinct categories. Liberals tend to emphasize individual rights, whereas leftists tend to emphasize group solidarity among the oppressed, either the working class or various marginalized groups. Liberals embrace capitalism to one degree or another, usually favoring a mixed economy.

Not just conservatives, but also leftists, have long distinguished themselves from and mistrusted liberals. Leftists have long viewed liberals as unreliable allies at best.

Liberalism has been the default mainstream American view for most of the past century. Both conservatives and leftists have therefore needed define themselves in contrast to liberals.

For some of the history of mistrust between leftists and liberals, see:

- Combat Liberalism by Mao Tse-Tung, September 7, 1937
- Love Me, I'm a Liberal - sarcastic song by Phil Ochs, from the 1960's
- Leftists and Liberals Are Still Fighting Over the Cold War by Jonathan Chait, New York Magazine, July 2021
- Liberalism in the United States and Cold War liberal - Wikipedia

And here are some writings by people who currently call themselves "liberal":

- What It Means to Be Liberal by Michael Walzer, Dissent, Spring 2020
- Why I Am A Liberal Rick Perlstein, The Nation, January 7, 2013
- Why we should all be liberal: The power of an adjective by E.J. Dionne Jr., Washington Post, March 12, 2023
- Why I'm A Liberal by Nicholas H. Wolfinger, Huffington Post, Oct 29, 2016

I suspect that you (ASPartOfMe) have a lot more in common with these self-described liberals than with most of today's progressives.

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31 Oct 2023, 8:27 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

People say “I am Autistic”. We did not coin that term. We found elements of it relatable and expanded it.

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Same thing with “stay woke”. What was meant was expanded. Others decided it was something real and put it down to paper.

For reasons I've already explained at great length, the history of the word "woke" is, in crucial ways, utterly unlike the history of the word "autism."

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Related
In another thread the subject of the term “liberal” came up. After conservatives weaponized that term liberals gave it up if favor of “progressive”.

That last line is probably true.

Also true during the 1960s what was called the “New Left” in a similar manner to today did dislike liberals more then conservatives because it was and is felt that liberals enable conservatives.

From what I remember “Liberal” started going out of favor after Mondale got shellacked by Reagan in 1984. During the following years “Progressive” was most often used as a synonym for “Liberal”. As Democratic Socialism and “wokeism” gained currency “Progressive” became an umbrella term. Because a term goes out of favor does not mean people won’t use it as a compliment, descriptor, identity, or slur. Some people still use “Negro”, “multiple personalty disorder”, and “ret*d”.

I would argue that “woke” has some similarities to “Aspie” in that while it does not have as much neutral currency as a descriptor as a few years ago it has not dropped so much to have fallen out of favor.

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01 Nov 2023, 1:54 pm

Let's be honest, "woke" is just anything that makes racists nervous.

Having to dial 1 for English is "woke." Foreign films with subtitles are "woke." Having a black president or an arab mayor or an indigenous congresswoman is "woke." The phrase Happy Holidays is "woke." The poetry of Langston Hughes and Rabia al-Basri is "woke." A black protagonist in a Hollywood production? Oh, you better believe that's "woke."

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01 Nov 2023, 6:46 pm

Seriously, what is the point of all of this? While there is always going to be some bickering about the precise parameters, it seems to be generally agreed that there is in fact an ideology that crystalized and/or came to mainstream attention in the mid to late aughts and really caught fire in the teens that heavily focuses on identity, and that it's cumbersome to try and lay out the details and get bogged down in these arguments every time it comes up. Once again, my actual lefty friends would be full on conspiracy theorizing at this point about outside wreckers derailing productive discussion given the amount of time wasted because some people just can't accept a label, and it really does make one wonder why that's so important to them.

For the umpteenth time, I'll cite FdB, who's come at this far more ferociously than I ever have:

https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/pl ... ll-me-what

Quote:

You know personally I’ve been achingly specific about my critiques of social justice politics, but fine - no woke, it’s a “dogwhistle” for racism. (The term “dogwhistle” is a way for people to simply impute attitudes you don’t hold onto you, to make it easier to dismiss criticism, for the record.) But the same people say there’s no such thing as political correctness, and they also say identity politics is a bigoted term. So I’m kind of at a loss. Also, they propose sweeping changes to K-12 curricula, but you can’t call it CRT, even though the curricular documents specifically reference CRT, and if you do you’re an idiot and also you’re a racist cryptofascist. Also nobody (nobody!) ever advocated for defunding the police, and if they did it didn’t actually mean defunding the police. Seems to be a real resistance to simple, comprehensible terms around here. Serwer is a guy who constantly demands that he and his allies be allowed to do politics on easy mode, but he’s just part of a broader communal rejection of basic self-definition and comprehensible terms for this political tendency. Also if you say things they don’t like they might try to beat you up. Emphasis on try.

If you ask these people, are you part of a social revolution?, they’ll loudly tell you yes! Yes they are! They’re going to shake society at its very foundations. Well, OK then -what do I call your movement? You reject every name that organically develops! I’ll use the name you pick, but you have to actually pick one. You can’t just b***h on Twitter every time someone tries to describe your political cohort, which again you yourself say intends to change the world. Name yourself or you will be named.

The basic stance of the social justice set, for a long time now, has been that they are 100% exempt from ordinary politics. BlackLivesMatter proponents have spent a year and a half acting as though their demand for justice is so transcendently, obviously correct that they don’t have to care about politics. When someone like David Shor gently says that they in fact do have to care about politics, and points out that they’ve accomplished nothing, they attack him rather than do the work of making their positions popular. Well, sooner or later, guys, you have to actually give a s**t about what people who aren’t a part of your movement think. Sorry. That’s life. The universe is indifferent to your demand for justice, and will remain so until you bother to try to change minds. Nobody gives you what you want. That’s not how it works. Do politics. Think and speak strategically. Be disciplined. Work harder. And for f**k’s sake, give me a simple term to use to address you. Please? Because right now it sure looks like you don’t want to be named because you don’t want to be criticized.

Edit: I might not have underlined this point enough - I sincerely am asking for a better term and would happily use one if offered. If woke, political correctness, identity politics, etc, are inflammatory terms, I'd be happy to substitute something that's not. But surely something is happening in our politics, and we have to be able to talk about it. So I'm asking for a name.

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01 Nov 2023, 7:44 pm

Dox47 wrote:

Quote:

Be careful what you wish for. They would probably come out with a long drawn out misleading euphemistic term.

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01 Nov 2023, 10:11 pm

Barchan wrote:

"woke" is just anything that makes racists nervous.

A tad brief, but I suspect it's as accurate as such a brief summary of the matter gets. If everything were explained to me so succinctly, I'd learn a lot more quickly. Well done.

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02 Nov 2023, 12:58 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Be careful what you wish for. They would probably come out with a long drawn out misleading euphemistic term.

I personally identify as an anarcho-communist. I know that a lot of conservatives have an irrational phobia of hyphenated words, but there it is.

[edit]: If "woke" is anything that makes racists lose sleep then I'm a f****n' espresso shot.

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02 Nov 2023, 1:58 pm

MushroomPrincess wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Be careful what you wish for. They would probably come out with a long drawn out misleading euphemistic term.

“anarcho-communist” is neither long and drawn out nor misleading.

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03 Nov 2023, 8:22 pm

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Be careful what you wish for. They would probably come out with a long drawn out misleading euphemistic term.

How about "racists"? They fit the classic definition quite well, plus it's short and to the point.

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06 Nov 2023, 1:19 am

Dox47 wrote:

For the umpteenth time, I'll cite FdB, who's come at this far more ferociously than I ever have:

https://freddiedeboer.substack.com/p/pl ... ll-me-what

"More ferociously" than you "ever have"??? No, far from it. Freddie De Boer comes across (to me, at least) as much less fundamentally hostile toward today's marginalized-group rights movements than you do.

He comes across to me as sympathetic to the basic aims of these movements, but criticizing them from a Marxist perspective (he refers to himself as a Marxist here, for example), and from the point of view of an experienced political activist critiquing the naivete of a lot of today's young activists. (Any political movement that explodes in popularity as rapidly as today's social justice movements is likely to be dominated by naive young fanatics, with consequences similar to what happened within, for example, the feminist movement in the early 1970's, about which I'll say more later, in another post.)

Here is an ad for a book of his, How Elites Ate the Social Justice Movement, about the co-optation of leftist movements by upper middle class folks. The book is described as follows:

Quote:

An eye-opening exploration of American policy reform, or lack thereof, in the wake of the murder of George Floyd and the Black Lives Matter movement and how the country can do better in the future.

In 2020, while the Covid-19 pandemic raged, the United States was hit by a ripple of political discontent the likes of which had not been seen since the 1960s. The spark was the viral video of the horrific police murder of an unarmed Black man in Minneapolis. The killing of George Floyd galvanized a nation already reeling from Covid and a toxic political cycle. Tens of thousands poured into the streets to protest. Major corporations and large nonprofit groups—institutions that are usually resolutely apolitical—raced to join in. The fervor for racial justice intersected with the already simmering demands for change from the #MeToo movement and for economic justice from Gen Z. The entire country suddenly seemed to be roaring for change in one voice.

Then nothing much happened.

In How Elites Ate the Social Justice Movement, Fredrik deBoer explores why these passionate movements failed and how they could succeed in the future. In the digital age, social movements flare up but then lose steam through a lack of tangible goals, the inherent moderating effects of our established institutions and political parties, and the lack of any real grassroots movement in contemporary America. Hidden beneath the rhetoric of the oppressed and the symbolism of the downtrodden lies the inconvenient fact that those doing the organizing, messaging, protesting, and campaigning are predominantly drawn from this country’s more upwardly mobile educated classes. Poses are more important than policies.

DeBoer lays out an alternative vision for how society’s winners can contribute to social justice movements without taking them over, and how activists and their organizations can become more resistant to the influence of elites, nonprofits, corporations, and political parties. Only by organizing around class rather than empty gestures can we begin the hard work of changing minds and driving policy.

In a similar vein, in the article Identity politics is a game the left can’t win, he makes a typical Marxist argument that the Left needs to focus on socio-economic class much more than it currently does.

A couple of other articles of his that I found interesting:

- Some Principles & Observations About Social Justice Politics
- You Can't Censor Away Extremism (or Any Other Problem)

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06 Nov 2023, 12:56 pm

Dox47 wrote:

ASPartOfMe wrote:

Be careful what you wish for. They would probably come out with a long drawn out misleading euphemistic term.

How about "racists"? They fit the classic definition quite well, plus it's short and to the point.

The "classic definition"? You mean like, the way it was used by French socialists in the 19th century to describe white European ethno-nationalists, or is there some earlier meaning you're referring to here?

Traditionally, "racist" has always meant white ethno-nationalist. As a white man you should be well aware that if somebody calls you a racist (which, judging by your obsession with that word, I'm assuming happens quite often), that's what they mean.

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