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Speckles
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27 May 2008, 6:38 pm

MissPickwickian wrote:
NOOOOOO! NOT THE POLAR BEARS! SCARY SCARY SCARY! :)


Actually, Adélie Penguins (the classic tuxedo ones) might be the next poster child. Apparently a colony scientist have been watching had a complete failure of a breeding season in 2001 due to storms and ice melt floods. Someone just wrote a book on it.

Book on Subject
Interview with author



D1nk0
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27 May 2008, 7:16 pm

Anubis wrote:
Yes, oil companies probably are keeping production low and prices high, and that should be dealt with. Perhaps some governments should buy out a few oil companies in order to force prices down. Even if supplies last for another 50-100 years, they'll still run out, and pollute the atmosphere even more. The days of dependence on oil are numbered, and more action should be, and will be taken in the medium to long term.


Sounds like they need an incentive to keep production at a level thats beneficial for the economy. I favor the limited introduction of price caps which WILL force them to crank up production if they want to make decent profits :D .



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28 May 2008, 3:14 am

Ahh yes, good idea, that'll definitely work. Economies are being strangled by increased oil prices.


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28 May 2008, 10:32 am

No doubt there is some greed involved in OPEC, oil companies, and corrupt government officials. However, gas prices skyrocketing in the US has a primary cause that goes beyond any of this, and almost no one wants to talk about it. Thing is, gas prices aren't going up that much. They have increased nearly 100% in the past three years or so in the US, but not nearly so drastically in countries that use the Euro. If you compare how the value of the dollar has fallen compared to the value of the Euro over the same period, you will see that this makes up the difference. Also, if you compare the price of gold over this same time, you realize that an ounce of gold would still buy the exact same amount of gas today as it would have back in the 90's when gas was in the <$1.50/gal range.

What this means is that gas prices aren't rising, the dollar is plummeting, and there are many other indicators. Soaring health care, college tuition, utilities, food. Everything is going up but our salaries. Our media conveniently won't talk about this, but OPEC themselves have pointed to the fall of the dollar as the reason for the rise of the price of oil. When asked about this at a press conference over gas prices recently, the white house spokesperson responded that she couldn't talk about the value of the dollar and directed them to the treasury dept. When pressed on the issue, she said she would lose her job if she did. Hmmm.

The inflation estimates of 2-4%/year they are reporting are absolute balderdash. The figures they use to calculate this ignore energy and food prices, health care and tuition... among everything that gets hit first by the collapsing dollar. It's difficult to say what the true rate is, but since everyone has to eat, grocery price increases of 35% over the past year are probably a good ballpark.

How to fix the problem? Well, that's why they don't want to talk about it. Since the early 1970's the dollar has been off the gold standard. (No coincidence that the late 70's gave us our first taste of double digit inflation and gas crisis). Simply put, our dollar is backed by nothing but faith in the US government. And if you look at how the US government has been running things for the past decade, it is small wonder the rest of the world has lost faith in it. But that isn't the reason the dollar is plummeting. It is a simple matter of supply and demand. The US is waging a futile war that costs hundreds of billions per year. As unpopular as that is, it would be political suicide to raise taxes to pay for it. So they just have the Fed print more money. And of course we all know the US government has a spending addiction like no other... their annual budget is $2 trillion dollars, and they STILL come up with shortfalls and have to borrow more money from the Fed, and China (to the rate of $2 billion/day). WTF?!

So more and more dollars are being dumped into circulation, but the number of consumers are still relatively the same. Production hasn't gone up at a rate that can begin to compensate. In fact, thanks to outsourcing and bad trade deals, most of our production no longer even takes place in the US. And with the ballooning supply of dollars and the lost faith in the morons running the show in Washington, the dollar is worth less and less every single day compared to actual goods. And there is no end in sight. It costs about 1.2 cents per bill to print US currency, regardless of whether it is a $1 or $100 note. At the rate we are going, it may well get to a point where that is all they are worth.

Throughout history, all fiat currencies (not backed by anything solid) eventually collapse. For an example of what that is like, look at what happened to Mexico. Remember when you could trade a $1 bill for thousands of pesos? If things don't change, and soon, they may be able to change one of those pesos in for thousands of dollars. I am not exaggerating.

The solution:
(1) Allow gold and silver to be used as a competing currency within the US, thereby providing a stable medium of exchange and savings
(2) Get rid of the Federal Reserve System which has created this mess (and is admittedly to blame for the Great Depression and the Hyperinflation of the 1970's)
(3) Renegotiate all the so-called free trade agreements from the past 15 years to protect American jobs and industry
(4) For the gas problem specifically, we don't need it. We don't need to wait around for new technology, and we don't need to start drilling off shore or in wild life reserves. Propane is a renewable fuel source that we have an abundance of here in the US. It is so clean burning that they already use it in indoor fork lifts without worry of pollution. As long as there is life on this planet, there will be propane. I say build pluggable hybrid electric cars, that use propane when a burst of acceleration or torque are needed (the way hybrids use gas now) and use the electric engine otherwise.
(5) For electricity, I still think solar is the way to go. They've made amazing breakthroughs in the past few years. And consider this, for less money than than the US government has already spent on the Iraq war, they could have placed solar panels on every single rooftop in America. I sh** you not.

If you're not furious yet, let me leave you with one final thought. Fiat currency is very much a gigantic pyramid scheme. When additional money is first printed, its added volume does not affect the total in circulation. It is only when it gets out into circulation that its weight is felt and the total volume decreases in value. Therefore, the companies and persons who first receive this new money get the maximum value out of it. Then as it is spread through the economy its value drops along with the rest of the money in circulation. And when this drops, all of your savings that you work for drop as well. When you consider who is getting first dibs on this new money, Haliburton and the rest of the Military Industrial Complex, along with government contractors that acquires their sweetheart deals through corporate lobbying and other shady but legal practices, you realize the truth about inflation. It is theft, from your pocket to theirs.


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Last edited by LoveableNerd on 28 May 2008, 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

monty
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28 May 2008, 10:39 am

Quite right - Americans are amazingly blind to the fact that a 50% drop in the dollar WILL impact their cost of living. When the dollar is worth less, it buys less.



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28 May 2008, 10:45 am

monty wrote:
Quite right - Americans are amazingly blind to the fact that a 50% drop in the dollar WILL impact their cost of living. When the dollar is worth less, it buys less.


Uh, I don't think Americans are blind to the concept of the prospect of their money having only half-worth.

Go ahead, shout your mantra now:
"Americans bad, stupid!
Everyone else good, smart!"
(liberals beat drum and dance barefoot, repeating mantra ad infinitum)

:roll:


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monty
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28 May 2008, 10:58 am

Ragtime wrote:
monty wrote:
Quite right - Americans are amazingly blind to the fact that a 50% drop in the dollar WILL impact their cost of living. When the dollar is worth less, it buys less.


Uh, I don't think Americans are blind to the concept of the prospect of their money having only half-worth.

Go ahead, shout your mantra now:
"Americans bad, stupid!
Everyone else good, smart!"
(liberals beat drum and dance barefoot, repeating mantra ad infinitum)

:roll:


Thanks for putting (your) words in my mouth. Now let me spit them out.

When Americans discuss the rising cost of gasoline, it is extremely rare to hear one mention the falling dollar as a cause. That is a simple fact. You will find them blaming the oil companies, the oil producing countries, increased demand from China and India, the speculators - all of which have had some effect. But the American public is not generally aware that they have seen a far larger increase than people in countries with appreciating currencies. The drop in the dollar, which has resulted from a 'conservative' spending binge, has driven up the price of a variety of commodities for Americans.

Sorry if my observations (which are clearly accurate) don't fit with your notions of political correctness.



Last edited by monty on 28 May 2008, 11:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

LoveableNerd
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28 May 2008, 11:00 am

monty wrote:
Quite right - Americans are amazingly blind to the fact that a 50% drop in the dollar WILL impact their cost of living. When the dollar is worth less, it buys less.


Exactly, therefore you're working for less and less, but don't realize it because you are bringing in the same amount of dollars, perhaps even getting a 1-2% raise and feeling good about it. But able to buy less and less, while getting squeezed more and more.

Consider that prior to the creation of the Federal Reserve System in 1913 inflation was virtually nonexistent in the US (except for during the Civil War, which Lincoln paid for with a temporary fiat dollar called greenbacks), but look at what has happened since.

The charts don't lie (just a little outdated... from 2001... but the trend has obviously continued unabated):

Image
National Debt
The national debt has climbed to alarming levels since the Federal Reserve was created in 1913.
Source: U.S. Treasury, Bureau of the Public Debt

Image
Purchasing Power
As a result, the Federal Reserve Note (US dollar) has lost 96% of its purchasing power since 1913.
Source: U.S. Dept, of Labor, Bureau of Labor Statistics, CPI
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28 May 2008, 11:32 am

Even the most hardline laissez-faire capitalists know deep down inside :P that the Oil companies could care less about the US economy, and/or the unhappiness of consumers about high gas prices :wink: . Since cars,trucks, and buses all run on oil based fuels the consumers have NO OTHER CHOICES available to them! Its called a Monopoly :x . I remember hearing DUMB-Ass radio talkshow host Mike Gallagher the other night saying "well, the liberals dont want the oil companies to make any money!" :roll: . I DO realize the weakening of the dollar is leading to high gas prices but Ive yet to be convinced that that in itself is the whole story. The war in Iraq really DOESNT F*cking help either :? . Uncle Sam is spending BILLIONS of dollars to destroy and rebuild that countries infrastructure with the plan of cranking up oil production in Iraq, but guess what?
The Oil glut that was hoped for is NOT happening! A big part of the problem is that oil wells and oil refineries keep getting BLOWN up by terrorists seeking to disrupt the economy and compromise the newly installed government. Maybe its high time to look Elsewhere for oil, like Angola or off the west coast. *sigh*



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28 May 2008, 11:34 am

skafather84 wrote:


I advocate that all serious environmentalists practice PMR*.
I mean, they seem happy to abase humans in the service and worship of nature,
so it shouldn't be an indignity to them.




*personal methane reclamation.


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Last edited by Ragtime on 28 May 2008, 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

Ragtime
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28 May 2008, 11:37 am

monty wrote:
Ragtime wrote:
monty wrote:
Quite right - Americans are amazingly blind to the fact that a 50% drop in the dollar WILL impact their cost of living. When the dollar is worth less, it buys less.


Uh, I don't think Americans are blind to the concept of the prospect of their money having only half-worth.

Go ahead, shout your mantra now:
"Americans bad, stupid!
Everyone else good, smart!"
(liberals beat drum and dance barefoot, repeating mantra ad infinitum)

:roll:


Thanks for putting (your) words in my mouth.


Just summarizing for your readers.
You're rather long-winded sometimes, and I personally find myself losing interest halfway through.


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28 May 2008, 11:40 am

Ragtime wrote:
Just summarizing for your readers.


Why? You don't think people can read for themselves?



skafather84
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28 May 2008, 12:07 pm

Ragtime wrote:
skafather84 wrote:


I advocate that all serious environmentalists practice PMR*.
I mean, they seem happy to abase humans in the service and worship of nature,
so it shouldn't be an indignity to them.




*personal methane reclamation.


you don't need to quote me for that comment, raghead.



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28 May 2008, 2:47 pm

LoveableNerd wrote:
No doubt there is some greed involved in OPEC, oil companies, and corrupt government officials. However, gas prices skyrocketing in the US has a primary cause that goes beyond any of this, and almost no one wants to talk about it. Thing is, gas prices aren't going up that much. They have increased nearly 100% in the past three years or so in the US, but not nearly so drastically in countries that use the Euro. If you compare how the value of the dollar has fallen compared to the value of the Euro over the same period, you will see that this makes up the difference. Also, if you compare the price of gold over this same time, you realize that an ounce of gold would still buy the exact same amount of gas today as it would have back in the 90's when gas was in the <$1.50/gal range.

What this means is that gas prices aren't rising, the dollar is plummeting, and there are many other indicators. Soaring health care, college tuition, utilities, food. Everything is going up but our salaries. Our media conveniently won't talk about this, but OPEC themselves have pointed to the fall of the dollar as the reason for the rise of the price of oil. When asked about this at a press conference over gas prices recently, the white house spokesperson responded that she couldn't talk about the value of the dollar and directed them to the treasury dept. When pressed on the issue, she said she would lose her job if she did. Hmmm.

The inflation estimates of 2-4%/year they are reporting are absolute balderdash. The figures they use to calculate this ignore energy and food prices, health care and tuition... among everything that gets hit first by the collapsing dollar. It's difficult to say what the true rate is, but since everyone has to eat, grocery price increases of 35% over the past year are probably a good ballpark.

How to fix the problem? Well, that's why they don't want to talk about it. Since the early 1970's the dollar has been off the gold standard. (No coincidence that the late 70's gave us our first taste of double digit inflation and gas crisis). Simply put, our dollar is backed by nothing but faith in the US government. And if you look at how the US government has been running things for the past decade, it is small wonder the rest of the world has lost faith in it. But that isn't the reason the dollar is plummeting. It is a simple matter of supply and demand. The US is waging a futile war that costs hundreds of billions per year. As unpopular as that is, it would be political suicide to raise taxes to pay for it. So they just have the Fed print more money. And of course we all know the US government has a spending addiction like no other... their annual budget is $2 trillion dollars, and they STILL come up with shortfalls and have to borrow more money from the Fed, and China (to the rate of $2 billion/day). WTF?!

So more and more dollars are being dumped into circulation, but the number of consumers are still relatively the same. Production hasn't gone up at a rate that can begin to compensate. In fact, thanks to outsourcing and bad trade deals, most of our production no longer even takes place in the US. And with the ballooning supply of dollars and the lost faith in the morons running the show in Washington, the dollar is worth less and less every single day compared to actual goods. And there is no end in sight. It costs about 1.2 cents per bill to print US currency, regardless of whether it is a $1 or $100 note. At the rate we are going, it may well get to a point where that is all they are worth.

Throughout history, all fiat currencies (not backed by anything solid) eventually collapse. For an example of what that is like, look at what happened to Mexico. Remember when you could trade a $1 bill for thousands of pesos? If things don't change, and soon, they may be able to change one of those pesos in for thousands of dollars. I am not exaggerating.

The solution:
(1) Allow gold and silver to be used as a competing currency within the US, thereby providing a stable medium of exchange and savings
(2) Get rid of the Federal Reserve System which has created this mess (and is admittedly to blame for the Great Depression and the Hyperinflation of the 1970's)
(3) Renegotiate all the so-called free trade agreements from the past 15 years to protect American jobs and industry
(4) For the gas problem specifically, we don't need it. We don't need to wait around for new technology, and we don't need to start drilling off shore or in wild life reserves. Propane is a renewable fuel source that we have an abundance of here in the US. It is so clean burning that they already use it in indoor fork lifts without worry of pollution. As long as there is life on this planet, there will be propane. I say build pluggable hybrid electric cars, that use propane when a burst of acceleration or torque are needed (the way hybrids use gas now) and use the electric engine otherwise.
(5) For electricity, I still think solar is the way to go. They've made amazing breakthroughs in the past few years. And consider this, for less money than than the US government has already spent on the Iraq war, they could have placed solar panels on every single rooftop in America. I sh** you not.

If you're not furious yet, let me leave you with one final thought. Fiat currency is very much a gigantic pyramid scheme. When additional money is first printed, its added volume does not affect the total in circulation. It is only when it gets out into circulation that its weight is felt and the total volume decreases in value. Therefore, the companies and persons who first receive this new money get the maximum value out of it. Then as it is spread through the economy its value drops along with the rest of the money in circulation. And when this drops, all of your savings that you work for drop as well. When you consider who is getting first dibs on this new money, Haliburton and the rest of the Military Industrial Complex, along with government contractors that acquires their sweetheart deals through corporate lobbying and other shady but legal practices, you realize the truth about inflation. It is theft, from your pocket to theirs.


Yep, fiat currency is total crap. We need to go back to representative money. I wouldn't really get rid of the Fed, I would make it an agency subservient to the US Treasury responsible for taking care of the national reserves of precious metal, making sure banks have enough precious metal on hand, etc. I consider a pure commodity-based currency impractical in today's digital economy in which wealth can be transfered with the click of a mouse button. Better to keep the metals in centralized locations.


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28 May 2008, 3:18 pm

D1nk0 wrote:
Even the most hardline laissez-faire capitalists know deep down inside :P that the Oil companies could care less about the US economy, and/or the unhappiness of consumers about high gas prices :wink: .

Of course, but most laissez-faire capitalist don't think corporations need to care about anything but themselves. Read Wealth of Nations or any other book advocating capitalism to see how the pursuit of individual self-interest acts in the interest of society.
D1nk0 wrote:
Since cars,trucks, and buses all run on oil based fuels the consumers have NO OTHER CHOICES available to them! Its called a Monopoly :x .

Um... false. There's more than one oil company. You could argue that we're in somewhat of a cartel situation with OPEC, but the fact that there is currently no product that is a good substitute for petroleum does not inherently make the oil industry a monopoly. Please check the definitions of words that you're going to try to use.


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