The abortion debate

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Bataar
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01 Apr 2009, 4:03 am

Sand wrote:

Bataar wrote:

Sand wrote:

Bataar wrote:

daniel_von_disco wrote:

Gewitterdrache wrote:

Nervous system means pain.

Pain, pain, pain. Why does it matter if the fetus is capable of feeling pain? That bears no significance in determining whether it is a person or not. Many animals feel pain, yet that doesn't qualify them as people; and also, some people feel no pain, yet they are people nonetheless.

It matters because it is a human being. Many animals feel pain but they are not human.

It is not a human being anymore than four tires are an automobile.

Prove it. I'm saying a living creature that is biologically of the human species with its own unique DNA is a human being. Unlike your position, I have biology and science to back up my statement.

A removed appendix of a human being has all the DNA of a human but it is not human. It is not a question of yes or no. How much tissue is required for human classification? I leave my DNA on the floor when I pluck an eyebrow.

A removed appendix is not a living creature. Try again.

Orwell
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01 Apr 2009, 4:18 am

Bataar wrote:

Sand wrote:

Bataar wrote:

Prove it. I'm saying a living creature that is biologically of the human species with its own unique DNA is a human being. Unlike your position, I have biology and science to back up my statement.

A removed appendix is not a living creature. Try again.

A first-trimester fetus is no more capable of living outside the body than is an appendix.

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Sand
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01 Apr 2009, 4:23 am

Orwell wrote:

Bataar wrote:

Sand wrote:

Bataar wrote:

Prove it. I'm saying a living creature that is biologically of the human species with its own unique DNA is a human being. Unlike your position, I have biology and science to back up my statement.

A removed appendix is not a living creature. Try again.

A first-trimester fetus is no more capable of living outside the body than is an appendix.

Theoretically a removed appendix can be put on life support just as a removed tooth in a dentist's office. We are entering the area of humor.

DentArthurDent
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01 Apr 2009, 5:32 am

Orwell wrote:

At the moment, I think allowing first trimester abortions is a decent compromise, meaning basically keep Roe v Wade but ban late-term abortions. Exceptions to a late-term abortion ban could be made under extenuating circumstances for medical reasons.

Could not agree more.

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ThisisjusthowItalk
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01 Apr 2009, 7:08 am

Atomsk wrote:

The world is pretty overcrowded.

Thoroughly developed countries often have stable or declining rates of population growth.

Bataar wrote:

I'm saying a living creature that is biologically of the human species with its own unique DNA is a human being.

This is a patently incorrect statement. It is scientifically and semantically false. In fact, sir, I can safely conclude that you are engaging in the most contemptible skullduggery that I have ever encountered regarding this subject. Way to take the low road.

b9
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01 Apr 2009, 7:42 am

pro-abortion??
if all pro's were aborted then the cons would proliferate.

(sorry there is nothing much to post to tonight)

Sand
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01 Apr 2009, 7:46 am

b9 wrote:

pro-abortion??
if all pro's were aborted then the cons would proliferate.

(sorry there is nothing much to post to tonight)

Aha! That's why US prisons are so full. (Actually if the prose were aborted things would get much verse.)

ThisisjusthowItalk
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01 Apr 2009, 11:18 am

Bataar wrote:

Many animals feel pain but they are not human.

And yet we show compassion toward them. There are even several laws out there protecting animal rights. Some of us would like to see them strengthened. Some of us feel it's repugnant to shoot wolves from aircraft. In fact, a few of us would like to take a few shots at the people who are doing so.

Sand
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01 Apr 2009, 11:39 am

ThisisjusthowItalk wrote:

Bataar wrote:

Many animals feel pain but they are not human.

You think there's a popular market for SAMs? The gun lobby would no doubt be a strong supporter.

Chibi_Neko
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01 Apr 2009, 12:11 pm

Sand is absolutely correct, I have never heard of a pro-lifer going out of their way to express the concerns of the lives lost overseas the same way as they try to protect fetuses--something that has no feelings or brain activity.

To me Pro-choice is the 'real' pro-life movement, they care about living, breathing people. Embros and 3 month-old fetuses have no brain function. Pro-choice is based on compassion, not forcing people into a slave-like position.

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Bataar
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01 Apr 2009, 2:57 pm

ThisisjusthowItalk wrote:

Atomsk wrote:

The world is pretty overcrowded.

Thoroughly developed countries often have stable or declining rates of population growth.

Bataar wrote:

I'm saying a living creature that is biologically of the human species with its own unique DNA is a human being.

Again, show any scientific evidence that shows otherwise. Is a fetus alive? Yes. Is it its own unique creature with separate DNA from the mother? Yes. Is it of the human species? Yes. It's only "disadvantage" is that it's at an earlier stage of development. Just as a newborn is at an early stage than a child and a child is at an earlier stage than an adult.

Bataar
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01 Apr 2009, 2:58 pm

Orwell wrote:

Bataar wrote:

Sand wrote:

Bataar wrote:

Prove it. I'm saying a living creature that is biologically of the human species with its own unique DNA is a human being. Unlike your position, I have biology and science to back up my statement.

A removed appendix is not a living creature. Try again.

A first-trimester fetus is no more capable of living outside the body than is an appendix.

I never said it did. I said it's a living creature, a human being. I don't draw a line of humanity on its ability live outside of the womb. Biologically, it's still a human whether it's born or unborn.

Ancalagon
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01 Apr 2009, 5:20 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:

You never mentioned having compassion for orphans -- you must not have any.
You never mentioned having compassion for widows -- you must not have any.
You never mentioned having compassion for abused children -- you must not have any.

Oh, wait. Maybe you didn't mention that because the subject never came up. Kind of like those pro-lifers you were talking about...

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Pro-choice is based on compassion, not forcing people into a slave-like position.

This is something I really hate about the pro-choice position. It leads you to make the claim that pregnancy is a "slave-like" position, and that motherhood is a "terrible burden".

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Chibi_Neko
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01 Apr 2009, 5:32 pm

Ancalagon wrote:

Orphans, widows and abused children are under the catagory of 'living-breathing people'

Chibi_Neko wrote:

To me Pro-choice is the 'real' pro-life movement, they care about living, breathing people. Embros and 3 month-old fetuses have no brain function

Pro-lifers really only care about 'babies being born', quality of life isn't something they really care about, I know this because not every pregnancy occurs by choice.

Ancalagon wrote:

This is something I really hate about the pro-choice position. It leads you to make the claim that pregnancy is a "slave-like" position, and that motherhood is a "terrible burden".

It can be when you don't want to be a mother.

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Ancalagon
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01 Apr 2009, 5:42 pm

vibratetogether wrote:

"Pro-life", as used by those who claim the title, is a gross misnomer.

No it isn't.

I'm really curious, what gave you this strange idea?

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no one, and I do mean NO ONE has the right to tell any person what they can or cannot do with their body.

Not true. If you hold a gun to my head, I have the right to tell you not to twitch your finger. But believe me, I don't care what you do with your finger normally.

The right to swing your fist ends where the other man's nose begins.

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This is an absolutely inalienable personal right that every human being gains once they have been born (while inside womb, baby is part of woman's body, and does not yet have any personal rights, regardless of any granted it currently).

The baby is not part of the woman's body. And it does have rights, regardless of any denials.

Birth is an arbitrary and silly place to draw the line. There is no difference between a 9 month old fetus and a newborn.

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Ancalagon
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01 Apr 2009, 6:18 pm

Chibi_Neko wrote:

Orphans, widows and abused children are under the catagory of 'living-breathing people'

You're missing my point. My point was that just because you haven't specifically mentioned having compassion for these *specific people*, that doesn't mean you don't have any. And that the same goes for pro-lifers.

Chibi_Neko wrote:

Pro-lifers really only care about 'babies being born', quality of life isn't something they really care about,

Not true. Pro-lifers are also pro-adoption, generally speaking.

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