An argument against gay marriage that I've seen is:

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RichardBB
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01 Sep 2009, 2:49 pm

Well, what's next, allowing marriage between a human and an animal or marriage between a human and a toaster?



SingInSilence
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01 Sep 2009, 2:57 pm

^ That argument always makes me laugh a little bit.

The one I always got when debating in Civics class was "God doesn't allow gay marriage, so that means gays can't marry, because they can't marry in churches." 8O


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Jacoby
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01 Sep 2009, 3:43 pm

I pro-gay marriage/civil unions/whatever, people can do what they what let me say that first and I agree that arguments about animals and inanimate objects are silly. However, I do think that if there is no moral argument I don't see how there is for polygamy or incestuous relations as long as they're consenting adults.



otto9otto
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01 Sep 2009, 5:05 pm

Homosexuality has both genetic and hormonal causes. Google the relevant terms to satisfy yourself on this matter. (Avoid religious and opinion sites: stick with the science). Now are we going to deny civil rights due to such uncontrollable factors?



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01 Sep 2009, 5:20 pm

The form of that argument seems to be:

"Gay marriage is not straight marriage,
toaster marriage is not straight marriage,
therefore gay marriage and toaster marriage are the same."

Seems like a symptom of small-minded thinking; that all unfamiliar things are all the same, because they have in common not being familiar. And also as if that categorization overwhelms the category of humans marrying vs humans marrying objects, or animals, or the moon, etc.

OT: OTOH, I read once there is a woman who married the Eiffel tower (seriously --> link. Gotta love the quirkiness in the ASD spectrum...). And that doesn't seem to have lead to an avalanche of object-marrying.h


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claire-333
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01 Sep 2009, 5:28 pm

I always thought it was a joke, satire or something.



anna-banana
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01 Sep 2009, 5:33 pm

I would totally marry my ipod.


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01 Sep 2009, 5:35 pm

The toaster argument shows the level of stupidity and desperation of the homophobic lobby. What makes this even more abhorrent these people are winning the debate!! !! !


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claire-333
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01 Sep 2009, 5:42 pm

DentArthurDent wrote:
The toaster argument shows the level of stupidity and desperation of the homophobic lobby. What makes this even more abhorrent these people are winning the debate!! !! !
I have trouble seeing how anyone using something like 'the toaster argument' could take themself seriously, much less anyone else. :lol:



RichardBB
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01 Sep 2009, 6:40 pm

Animals and toasters are not able to give consent in a marriage.



RichardBB
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01 Sep 2009, 9:03 pm

12 reasons why gays should not marry.


1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like left handedness.

2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile
couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs
more children.

3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents
only raise straight children.

4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if Gay marriage is allowed,
since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at
all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the
majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the
rights of the minorities.

7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the
values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have
only one religion in America.

8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that
hanging around tall people will make you tall.

9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy
behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal
standing and can sign a marriage contract.

10. Children can never suceed without a male and a female role model at
home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual
marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new
social norms because we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer
lifespans.

12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a
different name are better, because a "seperate but equal" institution is
always constitutional. Seperate schools for African-Americans worked just as
well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.



Awesomelyglorious
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01 Sep 2009, 9:35 pm

claire333 wrote:
DentArthurDent wrote:
The toaster argument shows the level of stupidity and desperation of the homophobic lobby. What makes this even more abhorrent these people are winning the debate!! !! !
I have trouble seeing how anyone using something like 'the toaster argument' could take themself seriously, much less anyone else. :lol:

I can see it. The issue is that people aren't methodological thinkers so much as umm... gap-fillers. This argument fills the gap, even though it utterly misses the point, even for opponents. Y'see, what the opponent is really trying to get at is that marriage is fundamentally between a man and a woman and changes in this are thus arbitrary and don't have real boundaries. Of course, it is hard to philosophically outline an ontology of marriage though, so there we get problems, so the simple solution is a silly argument that is trying to address that ontological question about marriage, but that fails because the average person does not know where to start. So, they use a rhetorical gap-filler.



Sand
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01 Sep 2009, 9:46 pm

RichardBB wrote:
12 reasons why gays should not marry.


1. Homosexuality is not natural, much like left handedness.

2. Heterosexual marriages are valid because they produce children. Infertile
couples and old people can't legally get married because the world needs
more children.

3. Obviously, gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents
only raise straight children.

4. Straight marriage will be less meaningful if Gay marriage is allowed,
since Britney Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage was meaningful.

5. Heterosexual marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at
all; women are property, blacks can't marry whites, and divorce is illegal.

6. Gay marriage should be decided by people, not the courts, because the
majority-elected legislatures, not courts, have historically protected the
rights of the minorities.

7. Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the
values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have
only one religion in America.

8. Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that
hanging around tall people will make you tall.

9. Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy
behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal
standing and can sign a marriage contract.

10. Children can never suceed without a male and a female role model at
home. That's why single parents are forbidden to raise children.

11. Gay marriage will change the foundation of society. Heterosexual
marriage has been around for a long time, and we could never adapt to new
social norms because we haven't adapted to things like cars or longer
lifespans.

12. Civil unions, providing most of the same benefits as marriage with a
different name are better, because a "seperate but equal" institution is
always constitutional. Seperate schools for African-Americans worked just as
well as separate marriages for gays and lesbians will.


Since all of these points are outrageous nonsense it's obvious this guy is a troll and not to be taken seriously.



claire-333
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01 Sep 2009, 9:53 pm

They look like they may be sarcasm, sand, and most likely copied. If anything they should be reminded to credit their source.



Awesomelyglorious
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01 Sep 2009, 10:28 pm

claire333 wrote:
Yeah, but silly is still silly. One would think even the average person could come up with something better than toaster...but maybe not. :hmph:

Well, the question is the ontology of marriage, and most people don't know what ontology is. So, they don't even know the language to make some form of claim that hetero marriage is fundamentally right, and deviations from it are thus groundless and arbitrary, but that's the claim they are trying to make. So, rhetoric fills the gap.

I am not saying that they are even right, but Claire, if you were in their position and believed that gay marriage were wrong without getting into argumentation, what argument would you make?

EDIT "without getting into argumentation" means that the belief is before argumentation, rather than a result of it. Just to clarify that I am not actually contradicting myself, at least not on purpose.



Last edited by Awesomelyglorious on 01 Sep 2009, 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Sand
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01 Sep 2009, 10:33 pm

Awesomelyglorious wrote:
claire333 wrote:
Yeah, but silly is still silly. One would think even the average person could come up with something better than toaster...but maybe not. :hmph:

Well, the question is the ontology of marriage, and most people don't know what ontology is. So, they don't even know the language to make some form of claim that hetero marriage is fundamentally right, and deviations from it are thus groundless and arbitrary, but that's the claim they are trying to make. So, rhetoric fills the gap.

I am not saying that they are even right, but Claire, if you were in their position and believed that gay marriage were wrong without getting into argumentation, what argument would you make?


I imagine there ought to be at least an attempt at personal analysis deeper than shallow prejudice to confirm their beliefs.