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jdbob
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06 Feb 2006, 9:42 pm

Bland
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06 Feb 2006, 10:29 pm

Well, I am glad that Sudhir Jain is a nice atheist, subcribing to all of the religious virtues and ideals while denying the author of them.


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jdbob
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07 Feb 2006, 12:52 am

I think the point is that you don't need an imaginary friend to be nice. Likewise, just because you have an imaginary friend doesn't automatically make you nice.



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07 Feb 2006, 12:55 am

Right. Niceness hinges on one key element: Caffiene. Yup.



.... Sorry...


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Emettman
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07 Feb 2006, 3:17 pm

Bland wrote:
Well, I am glad that Sudhir Jain is a nice atheist, subcribing to all of the religious virtues and ideals while denying the author of them.


Yes, getting universal values out of atheism is not as easy as he makes out. And the "golden rule" and it's variants are not present in "all religions" as he affirms. Nothing like it.

A humanist difficulty: How do you derive "ought" from "is"?

A theist difficulty: the awful state of the world. "If good, not God, if God, not good."



Bland
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07 Feb 2006, 5:29 pm

If all I had to go on was "social norms" I wouldn't even bother to play the game.


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Mithrandir
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08 Feb 2006, 12:20 am

Emettman wrote:
Bland wrote:
Well, I am glad that Sudhir Jain is a nice atheist, subcribing to all of the religious virtues and ideals while denying the author of them.


Yes, getting universal values out of atheism is not as easy as he makes out. And the "golden rule" and it's variants are not present in "all religions" as he affirms. Nothing like it.

A humanist difficulty: How do you derive "ought" from "is"?

A theist difficulty: the awful state of the world. "If good, not God, if God, not good."


It is easy, ethical egoism.
For those who think I am an ethical egoist, I have a question for you :wink:


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08 Feb 2006, 12:35 am

I have a question for you.

What is the difference between 'ethical egotism' and being a middle class do-gooder?

I know every middle class do-gooder I've met wildly overrates their own goodness and niceness. But that's what's so appealing about it I spose, there is no external authority on whether one is good or nice, it's only one's own opinion that matters.

I think atheists also underestimate how much time and brain power they have to use making moral judgements over almost every little thing in their lives. I get tired just thinking about it. There's also a vague fear that there might be an afterlife or a judgement behind the secular do-gooder's actions: like they hope they've got it all covered just in case there might be a god, they hope they've earned enuf points in a secular way to get them into 'heaven. They're wrong.



Mithrandir
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08 Feb 2006, 12:49 am

Postperson wrote:
I have a question for you.

What is the difference between 'ethical egotism' and being a middle class do-gooder?

I know every middle class do-gooder I've met wildly overrates their own goodness and niceness. But that's what's so appealing about it I spose, there is no external authority on whether one is good or nice, it's only one's own opinion that matters.

I think atheists also underestimate how much time and brain power they have to use making moral judgements over almost every little thing in their lives. I get tired just thinking about it. There's also a vague fear that there might be an afterlife or a judgement behind the secular do-gooder's actions: like they hope they've got it all covered just in case there might be a god, they hope they've earned enuf points in a secular way to get them into 'heaven. They're wrong.


Unless there is no "heaven."
Except I do not know for sure, ask someone who does know.

What about Reincarnation?


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Bland
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08 Feb 2006, 12:33 pm

I think there's a big difference in doing good out of fear and doing good out of genuine concern for others. But the very fact that we're talking about good brings us to the real question, Where (or from whom) do we get our values of good and evil?


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