Autism and disbelief in free will

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Sorry, I thought this should be shared.

http://gfp.typepad.com/the_garden_of_fo ... utism.html

It is about how Autism may impact one's belief in free will. The author believes that autism reduces the probability of believing in free will. Does anyone here think Autism/AS/whatever else on the spectrum may lead to philosophical incompatibilism and denial of free will?

And are autistic people forced by their mental state to disbelieve in free will?

Nobody said anything like that at all. The issue was whether the cognitive style of autistics would predispose them towards disbelief in free will compared to the rest of the population. Being "forced by their mental state" isn't a relevant question given that there is no reason to believe that 100% of autistics do not believe in free will, and on this forum even I think there is a diversity of opinion on the matter.

I've always conceived of macroscopic indeterminism as pure rubbish. I find "free will" a bit harder because, while an intuitive concept, it is notoriously ill-defined. I've still found compatibilism emotionally appealing, even if intellectually muddled.

Last edited by Master_Pedant on 10 Jan 2010, 2:06 am, edited 2 times in total.

Well, if they disbelieve in free will it must mean they have no choice but to disbelieve in free will.

Yes my brain gets stuck and my decisions are limited by that. But I can still notice the times when thoughts click over and I can control which way to steer them. I am very much content to accept responsibility for my own situation. If my existence is part of some master plan or something then kill me now. I entirely refuse to succumb to the power of another and my sense of humour does not extend that far.

If anything I think it's my autism that allows me to focus on the very minor and subtle workings of my mind and enables me to see how each thought is really my own decision. If I look at my life in a very general sweeping way it would certainly appear as though I am completely devoid of any free will. But I'm autistic - so I don't tend to focus on large unimportant issues like that! haha!

This concept that this internal "you" is somehow a totally free agent not subject to the normal constrictions that are necessary for making decisions is very strange indeed. What inclines you to make any particular decision? Is it an entirely random internal coin flip or are you constrained by experience and genetics to favor certain actions and are therefore not free?

Yeah by 'free' it means there is a choice, but I do accept there are still restrictions placed on that choice. So 'free' doesn't mean my mind can do whatever it wants to do. But it is 'free' in the sense that no one else forces me how to think. They can get stuffed if they try!! !

Genetics, conditions placed on one from their upbringing and external environment can all influence those choices - and also limit those choices. But the reason I know my mind is autonomous is because I can observe several different thoughts occurring in my mind and it is me who decides which of those thoughts I wish to wallow in.

I cannot prove there is not some grand master who is merely making it appear as though I have a choice which thoughts I follow. I'd be interested in others' ideas on this. But I am just answering the OP's question as to whether autistics can accept free will. And unless someone has a convincing argument otherwise - I can't not!

There is this tendency to assume freedom means only freedom from domination by other humans. People make the false assumption that their conscious mind is an independent entity commanding their entire being and in absolute control instead of one of the various instruments that the body-mind uses to confront the environment. It is an illusion.

THE CONCEIT

Beneath all sense and sensation
Where the secret gears revolve,
Where the snap and slap of molecules
Enforce the chains of interaction
Tightly confined by history’s
Ken of missteps to disaster,
Processes proceed to decree
What whims may move to generate
Solidities of what we think as will.

This hubris each of us accepts
That we decide how and what and when
Discounts continuity’s mechanics,
Ignores that flicks of memory,
Twitches of perception,
Are chemistry and circumstance.
We luxuriate in self deception
Are unaware
We are a cosmetic flower
Perched within this strange beast’s hair.

Is our mind-body a product of our environment or does it determine our environment?
I think it's both.
Our previous thought is the direct cause for our present thought. Our present thought is the direct cause for our future thought. This may seem mechanical - but in any present moment we can determine our next thought. It seems very flexible to me. The mind does not have to be imposed on by any other being, or our environment. We have a mind of our own and it's only limited by whatever we can conceive of. Others influence it, yes. But ultimately we decide.

EDIT: I don't equate free will with absolute control.

Ok, but if the mental state is autism, then autism doesn't appear to force them. Not only that, but state of mind tends to refer to things like psychological health rather than things like accepted beliefs and so on, so I doubt that psychological health is something that autistics all have in common as some are crazier than others.

Nicely summed up Sand. I find it interesting that what seems patently obvious to you, me and some others is completely beyond the grasp of some people. I've noticed before in threads about this subject the same phenomenon. Maybe it is due to a lack of a scientific education? I don't know. The comments of those who believe in free will seem very woolly. Back to the OP maybe there is a tendency amongst some of us with AS to have a clearer awareness of how our minds work or to look at the issue more logically.

Interestingly, the problem here is that your conscious mind isn't responsible for a lot of your behavior or even aware of how much it doesn't do. So, even though you are conscious of some things, there is no reason to believe that your consciousness is being honest with you.

I would point to the Libet experiments on this matter, as they do put doubt on your experiences being the reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benjamin_Libet (if this seems shocking to you, think about optical illusions, you may see things that aren't really there, so this could be a consciousness illusion or whatever you'd want to call it)

Do you mean to say that you are not free - at least to some extent - to change the way you perceive your environment?

we are, I think, a product of many systems in our surroundings, family and our gentics. I used to believe in absolute free will but that was before I woke up and saw my life and the lives of others being controled by inner and outer forces. That does not mean that I dont take responcibility for my actions but that I also know what I am up against. For example. A child born in the ghetto of Atlanta, with no role model to help her see beyond the ghetto, a school system that is inadiquate to say the least and the crabs in the bucket type of peer presure...unless a miricle happens...this child will not escape the ghettos as an adult. There are varables though say the child did have one role model that saw the path to climbing the social/economic ladder and guided her in that dirrection. There is hope and a choice between peers and a better future. In this, the child has limited free will in exterizing that choice, but absolute free will does not exist. The only free will we have is based on what we know at the time of our choices we make...knowelge is limited to our experiences and our choices are sometimes limited to gentics. Even in a democratic capitalism like our own...freedom iteslf is an illusion.

Now back to the debate at hand...do I see this because I am autistic or because I am just very observant? I know other people who are not on the spectrim who dont believe in free will. The only way to know for sure is to take a national survey and even then it is a corelation not really a cause=effect type of result but to base the study off of historical sciectific aspies is very limited and alot of varables could be in the way. What if scientific people in general are subject to such thinking? Also one needs to look at the time in which they lived as a variable. I will tell you this, if this study was done right...with all groups and subgroups of people included, you will also find that also alot of N/T minorties in the US do not believe in absolute free will either.

Our unconscious impulses are determined by our conditioning. We can determine our own conditioning internally/mentally by habituating ourselves to certain thought patterns. So therefore when we make a conscious decision it is caused by a subconscious impulse - which is actually a result of conditioning that we actually have FREE WILL over.

We also don't have conscious control of our minds when we sleep and when we die. But it's in our waking and conscious state that we CAN actually control what we habituate our minds with. We have free will over our conscious state which becomes the conditioning that influences our subconscious impulses. Does that make sense?

In the article you sent me the scientist neglected to mention where the subconscious impulses come from. And I am holding to the opinion that it comes back to free will.

The other thing is - I'm not sure about this because I can't do it - yet - but 100-150 milliseconds may actually be plenty of time to veto a subconscious impulse for someone who can slow their mind down enough to observe it.