Non-Christians who believe in Jesus?

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*"Believe in Jesus" as in "believe he is somehow diving" or something like that, not as in "believe that he existed"...

I was born to a Jewish family in Israel, and since I can remember myself, despised Judaism as a kid. However I always felt something I can't describe about Jesus...
Later on, when I learned other interpretations of the Bible, I saw a different side of Judaism which I prefer. Still not 100% okay with it, but trying to look at it differently.

Anyway, I believe Jesus was a great person, who believed in his religious claims, and was honest and somewhat pure. As for the alleged miracles - I don't know. But I find it strange that he would be so devoted to his cause and teachings, and make things up... Perhaps Mania, but other people claimed to witness. So who knows. Anyways, since you can't believe in Jesus without Judaism, I started looking at Judaism differently - and saw his words as more trueful to the Torah than most modern-day rabbies, at least in Israel.

I know there are Jewish people who claim he is the messiah, but I have a problem with christianity. Not talking about the things that were done in his name, which he despised, but the whole concept of a religion about him...

He was a Jewish rabbi, he got arrested and probably killed because he was angry when people connected money to his religion - and as far as my knowledge goes, his believers split from other Jews because other Jews believed Bar-Kokhba to be the messiah. In addition, some people think Menachem Mendel Schneerson is the messiah, and are still considered Jews.

*Now, not only I share Kierkegaard's views (the ones I know...) about individual faith - but why an established religion in the first place?
*Why do people admire the cross? As some Israeli comedian asked, "what if Jesus was hit by a truck"?
*He didn't claim to be God himself, so why do people treat him so?
*If people admire Jesus, why do they talk about him, and not about his message?
*What the hell does it mean that "he died for our sins"?
*He was a Jewish rebel. He saw himself as a part of the Jewish nation. His followers were Jewish who saw him as their religious leader.
*Baptism was done as a Jewish ritual, partially in order to reoccupy the Land of Israel, as apparently John the Baptist recognised Jesus as the messiah. Are christians aware to the Jewish meaning of their baptism? Some people actually regard John as the prophet, and assume his followers turned to Jesus after his death.
*The disciples were Jews, assumably 12 because there were 12 tribes.

So, as I see it:
1. People were convinced Jesus was indeed the Jewish messiah.
2. They formed a religion in the name of the Jewish messiah - but not Judaism.
Am I the only one failing to understand this thing...?

yes you are the only one

If he was diving, I'm sure they'd be all 10 point dives.

There are Buddhists, Sikhs and other religions that have different viewpoints on Jesus. Don't let the legal jargon block the message.

Should be divine

I'm interested in what people here think, and how christians see this. For me it seems odd, as Jesus didn't intend to found a new religion, in contrast to Mohammed, for example...

Of course, I'm not asking of viewpoints of religions, but of viewpoints of individuals.
I don't like politics of religion - I don't think you have to follow your parents sect of a religion, of their belief, but should interpret it yourself.

I know there are Christians here, and I'm seriously asking out of curiosity. If you believe Jesus is indeed the Jewish messiah, doesn't that make you some kind of Jewish? Nevermind the ceremonies of conversion etc. I respect other views. It just confuses me a bit, and I'm wondering if the reason you're "Christian" and not "Jewish" is because of tradition, or your beliefs... Because politics are what separated Jesus followers from the rest of Israel as much as I know, and there used to be a debate on whether Christians should be Jewish or not, more or less.
Don't get me wrong, as I'm not criticizing you, don't have an opinion one way or another for sure.

And also I'm wondering about the cult of Jesus thing - he didn't refer to himself as God as I understand it... He was a messenger of God. And even if God was in him - still, God is the one to worship, if at all, and not his human form. As I see it.

Also I honestly don't understand how he "died for our sins". I can't understand the logic behind that. I'd be happy if someone could explain it to me, if they have any views that understand it...

Well, the first thing I thought of is that Islam reveres Jesus as a prophet - they call him Nabi Isa. This is why most Muslims feel perfectly OK about celebrating Christmas. However, I seem to recall that they have a rather different view of the Crucifixion - they believe he only appeared to die on the cross, which to Christians would be heresy. (Interestingly, this is exactly what medieval Christians thought Islam was - a Christian heresy - which is why Dante places Mohammed in the circle of the Sowers of Discord, as a religious schismatic.)

I agree, I'm not so sure Jesus intended to found a religion. Certainly not a vast powerful politically allied one! My take on him is that he's a composite of various elements - an actual moral teacher, perhaps another guy who was a political rebel, with elements from Greco-Roman mystery religion and a few bits of pure fantastic embellishment. That explains why he's turning the other cheek one minute and bringing not peace but a sword the next; why he's made to 'fulfil' a bunch of OT prophecies (many of them taken totally out of context), and perhaps why he even has the name Jesus (= Joshua, the warrior who led his people to the Promised Land, and a good nom-de-guerre for a Jewish liberator) - yet does such a very un-Jewish thing as institute the symbolic drinking of his blood, an idea which could only be of pagan origin. Many, many versions of the story appeared over the first few centuries CE - many of them used as teaching/initiatory aids in the Gnostic mystical sects - the idea of only four Gospels, and the obligation to regard them as literal historical truth, only came later.

As for why Christians have focused on the person rather than the message...well, Buddhism has that saying about people who look at the finger pointing at the Moon rather than actually look at the Moon, and I think it's happened wherever a 'Great Man' has tried to get people to look deep inside themselves - either they don't want to, or the powers that be realize that self-knowledge is bad for business and people reliant on an external 'savior' are more easily led.

BTW, there have been (and apparently still are) those who follow John the Baptist without following Jesus. Interesting...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism

Christianity considers the church and church community a part of the revealed order and wants the church to become one with Christ through the eating of bread and wine in honor of Christ. The church is considered the spiritual bride of Christ.


Admire? Honor the cross. The reason being that the cross is considered central to Christianity, both ethically "take up your cross daily", but also spiritually as the cross as seen as central to God's plan and the atonement. If Jesus was hit by a truck, then it might very well be a truck, but part of the idea is that it wouldn't have been a truck and that Christ's death was fore-ordained by God.


The prevailing belief is that the teachings of Christ both recorded and unrecorded suggest strongly that he is God. At first these variations on the character of Christ were accepted, but eventually the desire to make an orthodoxy pushed towards the Council of Nicea which claimed that Jesus was one and the same as God. Most Christians today accept this ruling.


Most people are nominally Christian and very few give much attention to Christian teaching. People do talk about the scriptures, however, neither Jesus nor his followers wrote anything down.


This is the basis of the atonement. The idea is that our sins would otherwise cause us to go to hell and suffer for an eternity, but threw the death of Christ, he removed this burden for believers so that all who believe may avoid hell. Now, atonement theories differ, but the idea in the West is that God was angry with man because all of our sins were wrongs done against an infinite God. So, God incarnated himself as a man so that this man, Jesus, could represent all of mankind and sacrifice himself as a means of honoring God and covering our transgressions with his blood.


Arguably yes, however, we have no writings from Jesus himself. Not only that, but most of our writings are from a branch of Christianity that saw the Christian message as universal and to all men rather than to something particularly Jewish. In fact, some of the Gospels are believed to have been written outside of Israel. Additionally there was antipathy between Jews and Christians, so they wouldn't have identified as strongly with Judaism.


1) Yes.
2) The mainstream Jews rejected Jesus, most of the converts were outside of Jewish tradition(and the teachings were likely influenced by this), the teachings of Christianity tend to be different than Jewish teachings(triune God, Original sin, need for an atonement, etc), finally ongoing antipathy between Jews and Christians has existed for much of the past 2000 years.
Yes.

Okay I may be half asleep, but is there a specific example where Jesus advocated violence? I remember the story about the money lenders in the church but I don't think it was as bad as murder etc.



Again because I'm tired - I was raised catholic btw - can you site some examples that suggest his godliness apart from Nicea? I just can't remember.

Muslims believe Jesus to be a Prophet. Jews believe Jesus to be a fraud.

I see this as merely an aphorism, and he is famous for those.
I understand that he told his disciples to think of the bread as his body, a way to remember him, and think of the wine as his blood.
Did he actually drink blood anywhere?


Again, that misses the whole point of Jesus, in my opinion. He would prefer it if you would come one with God, as I see it. Especially when he fought so much for the Jewish Bible and nation... I see it a bid odd to form a religion in order to honour the messiah of another religion. That's why the Evangelical view (which I don't 100% agree with) has some sense to me. If I'm not wrong, his acceptance by the gentiles even goes along with some prophecies about the messiah. I'm not against the idea of gentiles admiring Jesus, don't get me wrong.


So what if the mainstream rejected him? You still cannot be Christian without having the fundamentals of Jewish belief...

No, one can consistently be a Christian pacifist.


John 1, at the beginning starts with 1"The word was God", and also containing "The word was made flesh". Colossians 2:9 says that the "in [Jesus] dwells the fullness of God". In Titus 2:13 it is said " the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;", and so on. Additionally, there are other verses that trinitarians use to imply the trinity in terms of claiming that people wouldn't have treated Jesus in certain ways unless they thought him God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Judaism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messianic_Jewish_theology

If I have to choose some religious definition, I'm the closest to this one.
Christian say this is Christianity. Jews say this is Christianity.
I say that Jesus was loyal to the Torah much more than today's mainstream Judaism.
And if I was born a Jew, an regard myself as such, how can anyone tell me that I'm not?
Am I not Jewish because I don't believe in mainstream interpertations? Because I'm a thinker?

Well.... usually religions do exclude non-mainstream interpretations. The reason being that there have to be cut-off points, otherwise people can interpret anything into the religious scriptures. Whether or not you are a thinker is outside whether you are to be considered Jewish.

Well, just answering the OP, I would say that "Christianity" is a great way of distracting humans from what Jesus actually said and did. As you correctly point out, Jesus was a Jew. He was circumcised, He kept Passover, He read Scripture in the Temple, He was referred to as Rabbi.

"Christian" is just a word, which often gets in the way. Jesus, on the other hand, is a person, a real human being, and I think it's important that we don't let ANYTHING get in the way of knowing Him. If the word "Christian" gets in the way, don't worry about it.

I know practising Sikhs and Buddhists who know more about Jesus, and what He lived for, than some Christians. Don't worry about isms. If you feel something indescribable about Jesus, then be glad, and find out more, without worrying about denominations.

Jesus is Jesus. Christianity is just a bunch of crazy rules. You know perfectly well what Jesus said when asked what the sum of the Law was... He quoted from the Torah.

"Hear oh Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is One, and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength... Love your neighbour as yourself... on these hang the Law and the Prophets."

You can't add or take away from that. And actually, you can't get any more Jewish than that.

My advice, don't worry about religion. Religion crucified Him... and it's still doing it. Ignore religion, and just find out about Him.

Well, according to the religion itself, I'm still Jewish even if I decide to convert.

Other Jewish quotes about Jesus:

















By the way. I found that Jesus was quoted saying this:

Which gets to my point - there's no reason in worshipping the messenger.

I'm glad to see someone agrees with me.

Funny thing is, religious Jews I know think he is somekind of antisemite, while secular ones who study admire him, as a person devouted to morals, good deeds, humbleness, etc.

That's also the view of people like Spinoza or Buber - they don't believe he is divine, but see him as a brave man full of love, compassion and devotion to his own truth. I don't know if he is the messiah or not - but one sure thing, I admire him. As Einstein sad, this can't be made up. Perhaps the apostles made him more "divine", perhaps he had somekind of delusion, but I just don't get it when religious Jews speak against him. If they blame him for antisemitism done in his name - why praise Bar-Kokhba (who was considered messianic himself), whose revolt brought exile?

I think Jesus would despise most Christianity of this day.
Hatred of his own people, intolerance, violence in the name of the greatest pacifist ever, people idolising him without understanding what he stood for...

Funny thing is, according to some modern iterpretations, he was killed because of his popularity in Judea.

Being one with God isn't against being part of the church.

I don't understand. Gentiles became part of a Jesus movement that was supposedly based upon some elements of Judaism as well as some elements of the teachings of Christ. I don't see how this is odd. The point is to honor this being, we call religions what we do based upon how these beliefs relate to each other, but there is no essence. In fact, the placement of some religions is going to be based upon interpretation.


I don't think so. I think that something from a momentous occasion can be symbolic enough.


I am not religious.

No, there is no contradiction. The trinity is comprised of a "Father", a "Son" which is Christ, and a "Holy Spirit".

The Christians accept the idea that Jesus was born of a virgin. He had no Earthly father in their eyes. To go further, they take statements of God as Christ's father more seriously.


Why should they pay any attention.


No, the death is a central part of the atonement. (Grr.... I had a typo)

Christ's life isn't important unless he died.


Ok, I am not denying that, but part of the problem is that Christian scriptures were written to a lot of non-Christian audiences and by non-Christians themselves.


The mainstream decides what will be in the mainstream.

Some Christians attempted to remove the Jewishness in the past, and some attempt to do so to this day.

That being said, while there is some element of Judaism in Christ, some scholars on both sides believe that Jesus came down to do his own thing.(others disagree, and so on)