If I'm not quite a Christian, can I still join a church?

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Two Christmases ago, my aunt gave me something called The Apologetics' Study Bible. It had a picture of Rodin's "The Thinker" on the cover, and it puported to be a philosopher's study Bible, a thoughtful meditation on what it means to be Christian. When I opened it up, however, I was confronted with fundamentalist musings on creationism, eternal damnation, the Satanic origins of Buddhism, the "unnaturalness" of homosexuality, and the "reliability" of even the most improbable Bible stories. I was crestfallen; I knew that I could never be a Christian if being a Christian meant accepting such things.

Fast forward two years. I am going through a difficult time in my life. I crave fellowship and comfort, and I am thinking that joining one of the more liberal Christian churches in my community might lend meaning and purpose to my life. The problem? As I said above, I can't swallow all the dogma.

So, should I join a liberal Christian church?

Pros:
- An easy path to volunteerism through ministries (I'm big on helping people)
- Increased social interaction
- Structure
- Calming services Sunday morning
- Free counseling

Cons:
- Might end up lying about my beliefs

I'm sure there are ways of finding what you seek without compromising your honesty. I'm not sure about where you live, but you could perhaps look into if there are any non-religious groups in your area. I know there are freethinker groups in some areas that do a lot of volunteer work and provide similar companionship as churches but without the dogma. I didn't quite get from your post whether you're still a theist or not, but in any case, freethinker groups are intended to be non-dogmatic, and are likely to welcome you no matter what you believe. Philosophical arguments may arise, though, but likely of the friendly variety, as discussion is considered an important part of free thought.
My advice: Do a google search for Tennessee freethinkers. Or your town, even.

Depends on whatchu want. Strengthen your religious beliefs? Then go to the church, i'm sure you'll find ample support for that. If you are fine with doing relatively common christian stuff (such as going to the church for Xmas, Easter or any other religious holiday) you might not need to actually join a church. You don't have to worry too much about it, it's been more or less the same for people in Montreal, the churches are still there but there's not a big participation, however they are usually visited during the religious holidays (or any other "special" occasions such as a potential visit from the Pope).

I guess you probably don't have to literally "join", I guess if all you want is community and sunday services. I doubt you would have to lie too much to do this anyway. I do find it funny that you "can't swallow all of the dogma" though for a liberal church. A lot of liberals are universalists, evolutionists, accepting of scriptural imperfections, tolerant to homosexuality, and Buddhists. I wouldn't know what the liberals in your area would be like though, as variations that exist might not be variations in your area. I mean, the apologetics Bible is likely written for conservatives, as they're very interested in apologetics(and some are respectable as philosophers in some form or fashion, but more in philosophy of religion which is all about creating arguments for religions and things like that). However, liberal Christianity's figure John Shelby Spong might be of some interest to you, as he is pretty liberal.

I am guessing that you are turning down Unitarian Universalism for a reason. (you said you did not like dogma and they're the perfect fit for anti-dogma people)

Also, by "counseling", are you talking about formal counseling, or informal counseling? The formal would probably require joining. Informal likely just requires friends and community though.

Also, I am guessing (yet again) that the Islam thing didn't work out?

It's creepy how much you remember about me.

No, the Islam thing did not work out. Islam is a fascinating religion that is worth any intellectual's time and interest, but it is certainly not for everyone. I found it too rigid (does God really command that one pray at certain times of the day?), too fundamentally sexist (menstruating women unclean?), and too politicized ("Palestine palestine balistine blahistine blah blah blah blah blah"---my Imam).

Islam actually left its mark on me, even if it didn't match up to my deepest beliefs about the nature of the universe. I still have Muslim friends, and I now harbor a weakness for Islamic art and poetry. Also, over the course of my veil-wearing months, I learned a lot about the complex relationship that women have with the world at large, and I became a fourth-wave feminist. Even if it's annoying to have to explain to my extended family that "all that" was "just a phase", I wouldn't sacrifice the experience.

Ah, the Unitarian Universalists. I sporadically attend a Unitarian church in my town, but I find that it offers little in the way of spiritual comfort and much in the way of overzealous activism. I posted this because I am thinking of going to an Episcopal church instead.

Not really, I sent you a message a long while back about Islam so I could study it. I hardly see it as creepy that I remember this when I tried to take advantage of your information.

Not only that, but do you enjoy people too stupid to remember details? I mean, being awesomely glorious certainly entails at least *some* spark of intelligence I would hope.

Finally, have you not read your own signature for the site? "Remember me? I came here, established myself, lingered for a year, left, came back to argue about politics, left again, and came crawling back for advice about college" How dare you blame me for remembering you? You asked me to do this! Gah! Women are too schizo! (how's that for fundamentally sexist?)


Hmm... yeah, I am not surprised that you found it too rigid.


I am not surprised. I would think that joining a religion would leave some mark. I've never been Islamic though, so I wouldn't know how Islam would mark me. Then again, the part of a religion that I would most likely place the most study in would be the philosophy of it.


Hmm.... I guess I could see that. And the Episcopals are known to be liberal, Spong(who I have mentioned) is well known for being an extremely liberal Christian and he is an Episcopal. In any case, it is really your choice.

Beware of any religion that requires you to park you brains by the door.

ruveyn

^^
Agreed.

An Episcopalian or a Presbyterian church could be your best bet.

I'm Christian, and I would say definitely there's nothing to stop you from going to church. One thing I would say is, don't let anyone's definition of faith become your standard as to what faith is about. Jesus never said you had to believe everything in the Bible literally or you'd go to hell. It's only Christians who say everyone else is going to hell. Jesus never said that.

My view is this. Modern views on faith and belief are hopelessly literal, and this results in a lot of people thinking religion is one thing, when in fact it's quite another.

The word for "belief" has as it's root "love"... if you "believe" in God, it means that you love Him. It is that love which matters, not forcing your intellect to accept things that don't make sense.

Belief grows on you too. I now believe, literally, that Jesus died, and rose from the dead, and that He came to save us. What is meant by that salvation I don't pretend to understand. I certainly won't go pointing the finger and saying that such a person is in hell, since I'm not God.

If you join a church that gives your incipient faith a chance to flower, that can only be a good thing. You might never "believe" in the narrow linear sense that others think is necessary for faith. But you might well find that your faith grows for serving others an attempt to better love both God and His creation. Jesus said that when you feed the hungry, clothe the naked, care for the sick, you are doing these things for Him.

I don't see any hypocrisy in your joining a church for those reasons. The only hypocrisy would be to force yourself to give intellectual assent to a man made system. Jesus wasn't a system, or a religion... He was and is a person. Don't let the church scare you away from meeting Him in your fellow human being.

You might join a Unitarian Universalist church. UU's accept atheists, and a lot of people in there have been burned by extremist cults and are very sour on the "abandon your brain to us" type of church, yet still crave sacred companionship. I was a member for a while on a website for apostate Mormons (my mom converted in 1966, and raised me in it) and several members on there were active in UU congregations. It's a real free-spirit type of place, and nonjudgmental, which aspies need. If your beliefs tend towards Christianity and you're the type to accept Jesus as Savior, yet hate the evangelicals and their straitjacket form of Christianity, UU would work. I don't believe in Jesus, and the UU's are definitely Christian, so I don't bother with them. But if you're a Christian in the broad sense, try them out.

I think that Jesus himself would despise the church today. And despise Christianity.
Do you really need an organisation to belong to in order to feel close to your own beliefs?
Jesus was an Jewish individual. I doubt he wanted this whole violence, hatred and non-tolerance in his name - no matter if you believe he is the messiah/son of God or not.

Jesus was a rebel. You can't be a true rebel without being an individualist. I personally stay away from any organisations, and labels are problematic and meaningless sometimes.

My beliefs tend towards Jesus right now, I think, but not towards Christianity. He wasn't even Christian religiously-speaking, for crying out loud. If you believe in him as a saviour, you don't have to start or join a religion/church. It's all about how you feel inside. I highly doubt that Jesus, who is quoted "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone", would want all this conformism and hatred in his name.

hmnn.

Lying has been demonized over the years. But after all, this society would be nothing without lies. If it wasn't for lying, most people wouldn't have been born if it wasn't for a lie their father pulled out to impress their mom.... Probably Einstein was born out of that, what about Shakespeare?

Without lying, most couples would get divorced way too soon and then we would have to grow up with just a single parent, who would possibly not ever get married again, because "I have children" is something you are supposed to hide in the first date...

Politicians couldn't possibly get elected! What about Roosevelt, what about Obama, what about Lincoln? None of them would have been electable if they didn't lie! What about Hitler? Think of it, if it wasn't for WW2, women rights wouldn't have progressed so far and we wouldn't have half of the technology we have now! There wouldn't be internet!

There would be tons of products nobody would buy , this means unemployment rates would climb and eventually we would all be dead.

In fact, lies keep society going, if we were all honest most people would be killing each other rather than making friends.


Please do your part as a good citizen, and lie! Lie like the world depended on it!

Ah, I've seen that study Bible. I also found it deeply disappointing and full of fundamentalist drivel. If I recall correctly, at one point it tried to refute quantum mechanics, and it also said that scientific laws do not always hold, citing as evidence a truly pathetic misunderstanding of Newton's Second Law.


Sure. You'll find that the liberal churches are not very dogmatic at all. In my church, the only requirement for membership is faith in Jesus Christ, and they even relaxed that requirement for a Jew who wanted to join the community. No one in the congregation puts much stock in the issues you mentioned above—few, if any, are creationists, most probably don't emphasize eternal damnation, no one calls Buddhism Satanic, and the church is generally supportive of gay rights. There are plenty of other such churches in the country, but you might have to look harder to find one in Tennessee.


If you find the right church, that won't be necessary. A good church is likely to welcome you and have members willing to discuss faith with you without passing judgment on you or shoving their viewpoints down your throat.

I am legally ordained by the ULC as a minister of the god nurgle.

Catch an illness and you will never be alone!

Well, Norman Geisler isn't my choice of a philosopher.(he's a contributor to that Bible though)

Here's his statement on evolution:
"Further, time does not help evolution nor hinder creation. No matter how much time one posits, natural laws and random processes do not produce the irreducible complexity and specified complexity we find in living things. Red, white, and blue confetti dropped from an airplane will never produce the America Flag on your lawn. And giving it more time to fall (by going up higher to drop it) only accentuates the problem by mixing the falling confetti up more."
http://www.worldviewtimes.com/article.p ... rm-Geisler (it's buried in this review of a book, I just remember it from reading it a few years back)

bleh. Anyone claiming evolution to be random really has to retake primary school science class .