Religious+Tolerant

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Am I the only one who doesn't see how these two adjectives contradict each other?

I listen to every person, including those who don't believe in God (I'm agnostic). My senses tell me it's wrong to fight, and wrong to discriminate by gender, religion, race, nationality, etc.

I don't think it contradicts me believing in God. I even think that religious people are wrong for being afraid of sceintific research. After all, they WOULD be proud of the findings if it would show that they are right...

So - am I the only person here who believes in God, but not in the whole meaning that people automatically attach to him? I even believe in the Torah God, but don't believe in the common interpertations. I find it sad that if I talk to religious people, they call me a blasphemer, and if I talk to educated people, they call me an idiot. But why? My religious beliefs claim that I know nothing about God, and that science doesn't reject him.

What I feel, overall, is that the idiot population thinks you HAVE to believe in God, and the smart population thinks you HAVE to be an atheist. Why can't I be in between? Why can't I believe in the Torah, while having respect for women, for different races, for every human being, and being merciful? That's how I read the Torah. And I don't hurt anybody, so why do "educated" people have a problem with it? It's not like I'm forcing them to convert...

P.S.
I'm agnostic. I don't even claim there is a prood for God's existence.

(Am I the only one here feeling like this?)

Depends what religion.

If intolerant behaviour is part of the religion, then religion and tolerance cannot go together.

Also, lets say you -bizarrely- use a chaingun for cutting down trees and as an alternative to a weed wacker. Because it is used by most people this way it is forced to be accepted, but some people use it to mow down other people.

Chainguns really should not be used by most people and should probably be banned for public use, because they are designed to be a weapon even though they can be wrongly used as an awkward gardening tool.

It depends not only on what religion, but on how the person in question interprets that religion, and more important still, if they actually follow what they claim to believe. Just because they talk the talk doesn't mean they walk the walk.

The question is whether the religion HAS to be intolerant.
As said, when I tell intelligent people, who like science etc., that I believe in God, they look at me like I'm some idiot. But when I tell religious people that I believe in God, and say how I interpret him, they look at me as if I'm anti-God or something.

So, overall, and as I see from discussion here, people who argue with me about God automatically state how intolerant the Bible is. But I'm definitely tolerant. I don't think you can get more tolerant than I am, honestly... I'm more tolerant than most secular people I know (and also than most religious ones).

And no, I don't think I'm tolerant thanks to the bible. I do think that I'm tolerant thanks to my own mind, and that the bible doesn't contradict my tolerance - only some interpretations do. So why is my interpretation considered "balsphemy", and their interpretation considered "religious"? I think their deeds are defined as sins more than mine...

So, if some person interprets his religion an in intolerant way - what would be more effective for you, to try and convince him there is no God, or to let him talk to me, and let me explain why his bible doesn't say anything about his hatred?


I definitely agree. That's why, as I say, people shouldn't hate belief in God, they should hate the way it's performed by some people.

I consider myself an agnostic. An atheist friend asked me once if I believed in God. I said, I don't know, define God. He looked at me like I was crazy but I thought it was a legitimate question. I think part of the problem is people tend to think in limited terms when they think about God. I'm just saying maybe it's something outside our comprehension. We know that the sun doesn't really rise and set but that's the only way we can perceive it. Certainly microbes existed before the invention of the microscope. I guess I should make a note here that I don't believe in the humanistic angry father god. What do I want with a God who can't live up to his own standards? But is there a V.A.L.I.S. out there? I'm open to the idea.

I like your comment.
I think it's somewhat an autistic trait, perhaps, to ask questions about things that seem obvious. But as you said, it's a great question.
I also think you mentioned a great point - we just don't know everything. If so, nothing wrong about researching scientifically, but we also cannot prove that God DOESN'T exist.

Sometimes I find myself "defending" atheistic claims, and later "defending" theistic claims - and people think it's because I like to argue - but I hate to argue, I just like to discuss. I like to think about questions, and to research. Plus, I don't think it's a contradiction. I can dismiss claims from both sides. And honestly, even if I don't believe in God, I don't have a better explanation for some things. Even evolution doesn't, and I believe in Darwinism, trust me. It's just that saying "there is no God", and saying "there is a God", neither satisfies me, and answers my questions.

All I'm saying is that we shouldn't rule out any possibility.
And if idiots laught at nonreligious people, well, they're idiots.
But I expect science-lovers to respect creative doubtful thinking, a bit more.
After all, I heard a lot of scientists say about their religious counterparts stuff as "yes, but they're not the typical religious guy". So does that make them less religious? It means you can be both religious and tolerant, and a man of science and research. If you're so religious, than science can only prove you're right, as I see it, or offer different interpretations. It's either a proof that you're right, or gives you a better direction. I don't see how science contradicts God. Maybe it contradicts the "popular" God, but definitely not my one...

I don't think religion is neccesarily tied to intolerance.

Sometimes religious people, since they have rules and ideals, get rigid and picky about them, and sometimes people want to be intolerant, and just assume their religion supports them in it.

I'm religious, but I'm not intolerant, and I don't personally know anyone else religious who is. My religion actually pretty strongly condemns all of the various things that we currently term 'intolerant'.

There are also people who are so convinced that their views are correct that they are intolerant of anyone who disagrees with them. Some of them are religious, some of them are anti-religious.

I like to see people here saying that religion doesn't mean intolerance - but a bit concerned that those people are religious...
As said, I'm concerned about the overall approach of atheistic people, that religion means intolerance. Now, I don't expect idiot atheists to be tolerant to religious people, so of course I'm not speaking of atheists in general.

But as a person who is religious and tolerant - don't you find some comments made by intelligent people disrespectful of your beliefs? All I'm saying is that I expect intelligent people to recognise not everyone who believes in God also believes that Darwinism is BS, for example. Just to clear it out - saying "your beliefs make no sense" isn't intolerant to me. Saying that my beliefs make me sexist, racist, and what have you, is intolerant, as people think I'm devout to some system of thinking and beliefs, automatically.

Of course, I would be glad to see I'm wrong. I just get the other impression, when people say that my bible contradicts women's rights, and I give another interpretation, for example. If you advocate women rights, shouldn't you encourage my interpretation? I mean, anyways, people have their beliefs, it's better to show them that they don't have to be a***holes because of those beliefs. I find it a bit funny when I say I believe in God, people tell me he's a chauvinist, I explain why I don't think so, and they try to convince me he is. What's wrong about me believing in some theory which you can't prove is wrong? As long as I'm not hurting anybody, shouldn't you embrace religious people who are tolerant?

I don't want to be tolerated, I want to be correct. People differ on the latter.

Sure. Just take a look at some of the titles of threads in PPR. Many are anti-religious in the 'have you stopped beating your wife yet?' sense.

I have come to accept that almost all of the atheists I have met have been intolerent of other religions, and though I would like to avoid sertotyping their religion, every new atheist I meet continues to demonstrate how intolerant the group is in general, at the very least the most hardcore members of the group.

If they want to sterotype me, insult me, and pat themselves on the back about how "smart" they are 'cause they think they've got it all figured out, that is their perogotive.

If they do not wish to do this, if they wish to treat myself and other with respect and dignity, even if they differ in beliefs, that is their perogotive also.

I will simply try to conduct myself as tactfully and open-mindedly as possible, as that is the only way to change their minds. I would like to believe that if they are as enlightened as they claim to be, they will one day respect my attempts.

Omerik > " I find it sad that if I talk to religious people, they call me a blasphemer, and if I talk to educated people, they call me an idiot."

Can I have a big AMEN? This is me - "the Universal Heretic" I call myself. I will just ditto yiou instead of running through my credentials.

I happen to believe in God - not off conventional evidence, which rarely convinces me my shoes fit, but because he happened to say something that convinced me, which is hiow I get pretty much all my beliefs. Till then I was agnostic [except on the days I said I was atheist], tolerant to all and tolerated by few. They hate it if you refuse to wear a uniform. They still hate you if you wear the WRONG uniform, but not as much.

The person in my life who talked tolerance as a prime value the most was one of the least.

If you do not examine your own views enough to make them yours, instead of blindly signing up with the People's Expansionist Task Force or whatever your uniform is, how can you respect anybody?

Through my research, I've discovered that the world has many religious people who welcome scientific research. And I think that one reason for this is that history clearly shows us that the greatest scientists that ever graced planet earth were believers in God and that most of them were Christians such as Louis Pasteur, the founder of modern day bacteriology; Isaac Newton, founder of calculus and dynamics; and Charles Babbage, founder of computer science.

As a matter of fact, all these great scientists who brought modern science to light, conducted their science within a creationist framework. And if it were not for these great scientist, I really have my doubts that we would have any of the nice things that we have today - from computers to airplanes to toasters.

Tolerance is fine so long as you aren't compromising what you believe to be true.

If your creed says X is wrong, it is wrong. Being tolerant of it is wrong. Being tolerant of Y where your creed says nothing praising or condemning Y is acceptable.

Well, have you stopped?

I also want to be correct. As said, if someone tells me my belief is stupid, fine. I don't consider that intolerant, if he has no intention of hurting me.
I do feel intolerance when people talk about how religion is all bad, and primitive.

Let me explain with another example:
1. Someone makes a mistake.
2. First person says "oh, he's a total morron, hahaha" - intolerant.
3. Second person explains to him why he's mistaken - tolerant.

I have no problem with people arguing with me about my beliefs. I don't think it's disrespectful. I don't think you shouldn't make fun of religion, you can make fun of everything.

As Philologos said - how can you show people your beliefs, when you speak a different language? You have to understand my views in order to correct me. As someone who does believe in human beings, I respect them, and otherwise wouldn't try to talk to them in the first place.


First of all, some of them weren't really believers, or at least we don't know for sure.
Second, I'm not sure it has to do with them being Christians...


Why so? My personal creed doesn't say that I can't accept people who embrace different theories.