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NeantHumain
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19 Jul 2010, 9:21 pm

The word freedom is quite abstract and gets thrown around a lot in politics. It gets thrown around so much sometimes it seems like it's just a meaningless filler word politicians can use to create a positive emotional association in voters' minds (see also Westen, Drew. The Political Brain.). The average person, it seems, never actually stops to think about what absolute freedom might mean and how it's obvious any society imposes some limits on individual freedom. Understanding what freedom could possibly even mean would require cogitating about these limits to freedom and their basis in principle. Instead, the average U.S. voter has developed a series of emotional associations between the symbol of freedom and other symbols: the U.S. flag, a bald eagle flying in the sky, capitalism, motorcyclists wearing American-flag do-rags while riding on the open road, mountains and fields of wheat, country music, etc. The Republican Party and the conservative movement have been fairly successful at causing voters to make the association with them. It all sounds more like a montage, doesn't it? Speaking of which:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-9_fDEsv-Q[/youtube]



KaiG
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19 Jul 2010, 9:25 pm

I think this is a particularly American phenomenon.


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Sand
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20 Jul 2010, 1:05 am

NeantHumain wrote:
The word freedom is quite abstract and gets thrown around a lot in politics. It gets thrown around so much sometimes it seems like it's just a meaningless filler word politicians can use to create a positive emotional association in voters' minds (see also Westen, Drew. The Political Brain.). The average person, it seems, never actually stops to think about what absolute freedom might mean and how it's obvious any society imposes some limits on individual freedom. Understanding what freedom could possibly even mean would require cogitating about these limits to freedom and their basis in principle. Instead, the average U.S. voter has developed a series of emotional associations between the symbol of freedom and other symbols: the U.S. flag, a bald eagle flying in the sky, capitalism, motorcyclists wearing American-flag do-rags while riding on the open road, mountains and fields of wheat, country music, etc. The Republican Party and the conservative movement have been fairly successful at causing voters to make the association with them. It all sounds more like a montage, doesn't it? Speaking of which:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-9_fDEsv-Q[/youtube]


Since US policy in general in subverting democracies and installing and supporting dictatorships are based on economic and political international domination the continual baloney about freedom can be discounted entirely.



xenon13
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20 Jul 2010, 1:26 am

People who call themselves libertarians believe in unchecked corporate rights and their view of private property is such that many show sympathy for the institution of slavery and maintenance of that and support for the Southern cause in the civil war.



skafather84
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20 Jul 2010, 9:35 am

xenon13 wrote:
People who call themselves libertarians believe in unchecked corporate rights and their view of private property is such that many show sympathy for the institution of slavery and maintenance of that and support for the Southern cause in the civil war.



I think you're thinking of Anarcho-capitalists. Libertarians believe in private property rights of the individual.


Anyways, the whole corporate problem is why I'm more a fan of the social democrat position (the Euro version).


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Orwell
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20 Jul 2010, 11:13 am

In the political world, those who make the most talk about freedom are often those who are doing the most to undermine it. The Republican base, huge fans of songs like the one you posted, also unwaveringly support atrocities like the PATRIOT Act, illegal wiretapping, indefinite detention, torture, and censorship.

The ability of the neoconservative movement (only one subset of the Republican Party) to subvert the rhetoric of freedom into a tool for oppression is remarkable, and it is dangerous. "Freedom" is not equivalent to jingoistic militarism. Nor is it contingent on blind worship of the armed forces.


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ruveyn
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20 Jul 2010, 11:14 am

skafather84 wrote:


Anyways, the whole corporate problem is why I'm more a fan of the social democrat position (the Euro version).


A government is a corporation and the worst kind. It has guns and it can tax its subjects by force.

ruveyn



Sand
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20 Jul 2010, 5:55 pm

ruveyn wrote:
skafather84 wrote:


Anyways, the whole corporate problem is why I'm more a fan of the social democrat position (the Euro version).


A government is a corporation and the worst kind. It has guns and it can tax its subjects by force.

ruveyn


Many private corporations are quite adept at overthrowing governments and forcing populations to conform to their demands. A good deal of (if not the bulk of) corruption in the world comes from the economic powers of private corporations and to be unaware of that is to be either incredibly stupid or totally brainwashed.



skafather84
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20 Jul 2010, 7:54 pm

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
skafather84 wrote:


Anyways, the whole corporate problem is why I'm more a fan of the social democrat position (the Euro version).


A government is a corporation and the worst kind. It has guns and it can tax its subjects by force.

ruveyn


Many private corporations are quite adept at overthrowing governments and forcing populations to conform to their demands. A good deal of (if not the bulk of) corruption in the world comes from the economic powers of private corporations and to be unaware of that is to be either incredibly stupid or totally brainwashed.


Given his choice in wording, I'd say brainwashed.


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ruveyn
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21 Jul 2010, 7:22 am

skafather84 wrote:
Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
skafather84 wrote:


Anyways, the whole corporate problem is why I'm more a fan of the social democrat position (the Euro version).


A government is a corporation and the worst kind. It has guns and it can tax its subjects by force.

ruveyn


Many private corporations are quite adept at overthrowing governments and forcing populations to conform to their demands. A good deal of (if not the bulk of) corruption in the world comes from the economic powers of private corporations and to be unaware of that is to be either incredibly stupid or totally brainwashed.


Given his choice in wording, I'd say brainwashed.


Who do I pay taxes to? Not a private company. I can either do or not do business with a private company. But when the government comes to collect the tax I either cough up or go to jail or have my property seized by force. Mega-corporations can be obnoxious and unpleasant but you do not have to do business with them. The only way to avoid doing business with Gov-Corp is to leave the country.

ruveyn



leejosepho
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21 Jul 2010, 8:02 am

ruveyn wrote:
A government ... has guns [so] it can tax its subjects ...

The only way to avoid doing business with Gov-Corp is to leave the country.


... and we are each completely free to do just that, are we not?!

Freedom, I believe, is always relative.


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skafather84
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21 Jul 2010, 11:02 am

ruveyn wrote:
Who do I pay taxes to? Not a private company.


You may want to check where that money goes again and who it directly benefits.


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Exclavius
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21 Jul 2010, 4:29 pm

Absolute freedom is meaningless, just as any absolute one can conceive of. But it's a very good example used to illustrate the paradox of absolutes.

Absolute freedom could exist for a single entity, but not globally.
No matter what act I perform, in acting out the "absolute freedom" that I supposedly have, it limits another's freedom.

If I walk into a field and pick a single blade of grass, then no one else any longer has absolute freedom, because they can no longer walk into that same field, and pick that same single blade of grass.

The closest one can come to the illusive absolute freedom, is essentially to apply a concept similar to the Wiccan Rede. (An it harm no one, do as thou will) Though, you'd have to define "harm" to mean "effectively limit another's freedoms"

Governments try to find the balance within what I just described. They however do a very poor job, but that is to be expected, they have their own self-interests. We have pseudo-democracy, so the issue of getting re-elected is too important. Pressure groups speak loud and carry clout, so there has to be some capitulation to avoid problems.

The other facet of this discussion, is that most humans DO NOT WANT freedom.
they want to call the life they life free... but they do not want real freedom. They want rules so that they don't have to think, care, reason, etc... They want direction and guidance. They are weak, they are fragile, they cannot handle freedom. This group is a very loud group too.

There are people who desire freedom with all their hearts though. Some of them do not know or understand what they talk about, but a good portion of them really do understand it. I believe myself to be in that group. I know what freedom entails, and what is involved in obtaining it and living it. We also speak very loudly.

So, the two loudest groups both speak of freedom. One holds the true idea, the other holds an inconsistent idea wherein people are free to do what they're told to do or suffer the consequences. And so begets this whole issue.



leejosepho
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21 Jul 2010, 8:00 pm

Exclavius wrote:
If I walk into a field and pick a single blade of grass, then no one else any longer has absolute freedom, because they can no longer walk into that same field, and pick that same single blade of grass.


"Freedom" and "identical opportunity" might or might not be the same thing, but again, and as I believe you have said, the matter can only be relative among any two or more people. So then, let us all be free to do as we please as long as our doing so does not deprive anyone else of life, liberty or a harvested blade of grass!

And another thought I had this afternoon:

Governments have guns not only so they can tax their citizenry, but also so no other government might!


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Sand
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21 Jul 2010, 8:16 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Exclavius wrote:
If I walk into a field and pick a single blade of grass, then no one else any longer has absolute freedom, because they can no longer walk into that same field, and pick that same single blade of grass.


"Freedom" and "identical opportunity" might or might not be the same thing, but again, and as I believe you have said, the matter can only be relative among any two or more people. So then, let us all be free to do as we please as long as our doing so does not deprive anyone else of life, liberty or a harvested blade of grass!

And another thought I had this afternoon:

Governments have guns not only so they can tax their citizenry, but also so no other government might!


Good that you're having thoughts. Keep at it and you might get somewhere.



leejosepho
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21 Jul 2010, 9:15 pm

Sand wrote:
Good that you're having thoughts. Keep at it and you might get somewhere.


Not trying to go anywhere, my fellow, and for giving you yet another opportunity to take another cheap shot:

You are most welcome!


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