Origian solution to Israeli Palestinian conflict

Post Reply New Topic

I am going to propose my own original solution to the conflict. And I mean ORIGINAL. No one had ever thought in this dirrection. EVER. Here is what I propose:

In USA there are Indian reservations. No one really has any problem with the fact that they aren't allowed to live in these reservations unless they are Indians. USA is a big country and there are plenty of room to live outside reservations. Well, I propose to make Jewish area in New York to be Jewish reservations. I will take it one step further. I will set up a separate government for the Jewish reservation and make it into separate country. Well, if people will hopefully go far enough to allow Jewish reservations, then the next step won't be difficult since you would have to give up the same exact amount of land whether it be reservation or separate country. Now, considering that Israel is so TINY, in fact many times smaller than New York, you won't have to give up a whole lot to make an equally sized state in America. So it won't be that difficult. And then Jews will ahve their state IN AMERICA and then they can allow Arabs to have all of Middle east. That way Palestinians ahve all the land and Jews have their Israel and eveyrone is happy.

Your solution might end up being cheaper in the long term, because:

USA aid to Israel

Summary

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans: $74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid): $9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments: $1,650,000,000

Grand Total: $84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli: $14,630

Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S. Aid to Israel

Grand Total: $84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.: $49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers: $134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli: $23,240

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm"

--------------------------------------------------------

Economist tallies swelling cost of Israel to US

Since 1973, Israel has cost the United States about $1.6 trillion. If divided by today's population, that is more than $5,700 per person.

This is an estimate by Thomas Stauffer, a consulting economist in Washington. For decades, his analyses of the Middle East scene have made him a frequent thorn in the side of the Israel lobby.

More: http://www.csmonitor.com/2002/1209/p16s01-wmgn.html

-------------------------------------------------

Doubts over US aid to Israel

Israel says the US has offered the country $10bn (£6.4bn) to bail it out of the worst economic crisis in its history.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2867619.stm

-----------------------------------------------

U.S. Aid to Israel: Interpreting the 'Strategic Relationship

"The U.S. aid relationship with Israel is unlike any other in the world," said Stephen Zunes during a January 26 CPAP presentation. "In sheer volume, the amount is the most generous foreign aid program ever between any two countries," added Zunes, associate professor of Politics and chair of the Peace and Justice Studies Program at the University of San Francisco. He explored the strategic reasoning behind the aid, asserting that it parallels the "needs of American arms exporters" and the role "Israel could play in advancing U.S. strategic interests in the region."

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Middl ... srael.html

All the sources you quote here aren't what you'd call "unbiased" You're very good at quoting facts and figures. There was a certian German dictator who was good at that too.

Providing some information makes me Hitler Junior? Wow.

The problem is that they don't want to move from there, because they consider it to be the "promised land". But it doesn't seem like palestinians want to move from there. Because the solution would be then moving palestinians to new York or anywhere else in the world, come on, there's plenty of land in the world for a pair of nations so small...

The problem is that they don't want to move from there, because they consider it to be the "promised land". But it doesn't seem like palestinians want to move from there. Because the solution would be then moving palestinians to new York or anywhere else in the world, come on, there's plenty of land in the world for a pair of nations so small...

Palestinians have the rest of Middle east to go to. They are simply protesting against the fact taht there are non-Muslims in middle east. Thus, allowing Palestinians live in New York won't solve their problem. On the other hand, Jews have no where to go. So Jews are the ones who have to be given a place to go to (New York).

I can back it up with teh fact that Mark Twain wrote that the land was virtually empty when he visitted it. Furthermore, if I ask you what was the capital city of Palestine, what is its culture, etc. you won't answer any of these questions if you go prior to 1948. So basically the Palestinians only settled there after Jews made it fertile. Besides, I know that there are Palestinians who stated that their real goal is to trhough Israel into the see, while Palestine is jsut a cover up.

Eigther way, here is another way I am being non-traditional. THere are two "standart" ideologies:

1)Jews are the bad guys and they need to go
2)Palestinians are the bad guys and they have to go

Of course by "having to go" I really maen only give up parts of the land, but you got the picture.

Now I am being very UN-conventional. MY theory (and MY ONLY) is the following:

3)PALESTINIANS are bad guys; but JEWS have to go

This has an advantage. If GOOD guys have to go, they won't protest with terrorism or anything. So it is easilly solved. I know Jews think Israel is their holy land. But since I believe they are good guys, I am sure if they are given some other land they will cooperate.

So my HOPE is taht all Jews will come to New York and have Israel there and the problem is solved. But even if they refuse to give up Israel in Middle east because it is holy land, I will still support their having ANOTHER Israel in New york. That way they have in the back of their mind that fighting Palestinians is NOT a survival battle but rather a battle between good (New York) and better (Middle East) so perhaps they won't be as much worked up about it.

So I have two plans

Plan 1) Have Jews leave Middle east completely and settle in New York
Plan 2) Allow Jews to have two countries: one in Middle East and one in New York

Again I am being ORIGINAL here. YOu see, in Plan 1 I sound mean to the Jews. On the other hand in Plan 2 I sound overly nice to them. So that is where I am being different from everyone else. All toehr people either try to be nice to Jews or nice to Palestinians, nothing in between. But on the ohter hand I am going both ways and comming up with answers no one ever thought before.

And don't forget even the very idea of a state of Israel in a different place is original. So yah I hope people improve their imagination.

Last edited by Roman on 04 May 2006, 8:41 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Another plan: Create a nanotech virus which kills anyone holding a firearm. Give it a programmed limited lifespan of maybe two months. Let it loose in the middle of Jerusalem. Get rid of the IDF and their militant opposition, and let the real people get on with their lives.

I am going to sound very politically uncorrect, but I think the best solution is to induce all Palestinian Arabs living west of the Jordan river to move to Jordan, the de facto Palestinian state or to other Arab countries unless they are willing to acknowledge and live under Jewish sovereignty. This land is Jewish by historical right. They have more of a historical connection to modern Eretz Israel than the descendants of European settlers in the Western Hemisphere. There are 21 Arab states in the Middle East all occupying a land mass bigger than the United States, Israel, even with Judea and Samaria, occupies an area the size of New Jersey. There is enough room in the Arab world for 1.5 to 2 million Palestinians. In fact most of the "Palestinians" are one or two generations from the massive Arab influx into that part of the world when it was under British control (Read Joan Peters book "From Time Immemorial: the Origins of the Arab-Israeli Conflict").

The only thing for sure is that people from Israel and people from Palestina can't live together (if they could live together, that would be great). So one of them has to go (or the two of them...), be it palestinians or jews...

for me, both palestinians and jews have been good and bad guys at some point, we can't be like "they're bad and they're good", because things don't work that way.

Ancient History

Israelites, a Semitic people, apparently of nomadic origin, whose emergence in the Levant is identified with a shift of settlement at the start if the Iron Age (c. 1200 bc), when a new pattern of small villages dispersed in upland regions replaced the urban life of the Bronze Age. Explanations for this process range from the nomadic invasion thesis (derived from Biblical accounts in Exodus) to settlement of indigenous populations of nomads and brigands, to social revolution by the urban lower classes at the end of the Bronze Age. The Israelites' conquest of areas occupied by the Canaanites brought them into an ultimately successful conflict with the Philistines. The major building works carried out under the united kingdom belong to the reign of Solomon. The northern kingdom of Israel (see Samaria) was conquered by the Assyrians in the late 8th century BC, while the southern kingdom of Judah was reduced by the Babylonians in the early 6th century BC. See also Jerusalem.

Jerusalem, a city in the Judaean hills, Israel, which has been occupied for thousands of years and which has been excavated virtually continuously since the 1860s. Comparatively little remains of ancient Jerusalem, chiefly because of the repeated destructions suffered by the city (e.g. that of Titus in 70 AD) and later Byzantine and Islamic overbuilding. The first major construction at Jerusalem seems to have been the stone fortifications of the late Bronze Age. Jerusalem was captured by the Israelites under Davin in c.996 BC and extended to the north by Solomon, who built a temple and palace in an area later overbuilt by the Herodian temple platform, and by Hezekiah, whose water tunnel is still visible. Jerusalem was patronised by the Byzantine emperors beause of its Christian associations and by Islamic caliphs as a holy city. Most of the walls to be seen at Jerusalem are the work of Suleiman the Magnificent (1538-41 AD) on top of Herodian and Roman foundations, while the octagonal 'Dome of the Rock' (685-692 AD) is the most striking of the Islamic buildings in Jerusalem.

Canaanites, an ethnic group identified with the sophisticated urban civilisation of the Levant during the Bronze Age (see Hazor, Jericho, Lachish, Beit Mersim). The Canaanites were dislodged from much of their territory by the Israelites and Philistines, but much of their culture persisted among the Phoenicians.

Phoenicians, a Semitic people, the cultural heirs of the Canaanites, who flourished as traders from their ports of Byblos, Sidon, and Tyre during the 1st millennium BC. They are credited with the founding of Carthage and the invention of the alphabet.

Philistines, one of the Sea Peoples whose occupation of southern Palestine marks the beginning of the Iron Age in that region. The five chief cities of the Philistines (the 'Pentapolis') were Ashkelon, Ashdod, Gaza, Gath, and Ekron.

Source: Collins Dictionary of Archaehology, ISBN 0 00 434158 9.

------------

In other words, the Israelites came in from somewhere else and took over by military conquest.

In the above quote you were referring to Cananites, which are descendants of Canaan, the son of Ham *IN THE BIBLE* Okay, fine.

Case 1: Bible is true. In this case the fact that Israelites conqured Cananites is God's will and you can't argue against it.

Case 2: Bible is false. Then there are no such people as Cananites, hence Israelites couldn't possibly have conquired ppl that didn't exist.

The Canaanites were a real people who got a mention in a collection of fictional stories.

Canaanites = real.

Ham = fiction.

Your case 1 and 2 are nonsense. The real situation is this:

Case 1: Bible is true. In this case the fact that Israelites conqured Cananites is God's will and you can't argue against it.

Case 2: Bible is fiction, which mentions some real people and places here and there. The Canaanites were such a real people. This neither proves nor disproves any possible deities.

Okay I see what you are saying. But in this case Israelites are not the only ones who got their land by conquest. Americans conquered Indians. Well fine you might think it was also wrong. But how about most Europeans moving around from place to place and fighting wars with each other? The wars Europeans were fighting were far more recent to the Israelite conquest of Canaanites, so it is still true that Israelites have more of a claim on Israel than most Europeans.

Okay, I know the objection. Basically you are going to argue that if according to the rules of the game it is okay to get a land by conquest, then the fact that Jews lost Israel by war with Romans is equally okay. Great. But in this case I will continue the same line of logic and say that the way Jews got their land back in 1948 is also okay.

So in other words you have to choose how many years back you want to go.

1)Go indefinite time back. THen Israel belongs to Canaanites, NOT Jews
2)Go over 2 millenia back. Then Israel belongs to Jews
3)Go a little less than 2 millenia back. Then Israel belongs to Romans since they took it from Jews
4)Go a century back. Then Israel doesn't belong to ANYONE -- there were no such people as Paelstinians (they are no differnet from other Arabs) and the land surrounding Jerusalime was a desert before Jews settled
5)Go back to 1948. Then parts of Israel belong to Jews and other parts belong to Arabs
6)Go to a year ago. Then all Israel belongs to the Jews including Gasa strip
7)Go to today. Then the boundaries should be as they are

HERE IS A POINT: you can't tell me OBJECTIVELY which time is better to go back to than to other. You certainly don't want option 1, since it would disqualify most of Europeans from having their countreis. So you got to stick to options 2 through 7. So which ones will you choose? It is just the matter of liking some numbers over others. Since in either case you have to limit yourself to only going a certain NUMBER of years back, no less no more (since we already decided to rule out option 1). Probably that is why people can argue forever about the topic and still not know whom the land belongs to.

I guess if you do believe in Bible then things are a lot clearer since you can follow what God said should be done. But since you told me you don't believe in it, I don't see why you have such strong opinions on the issue. After all you don't have such strong opinions on Europeans returning their respective contures to whatever tribes were living in there millenia ago. Again you can use the same argument to say that there were no reason to give Israel to Jews in 1948. But then don't you see how it goes both ways:

A)There were no reason to give Israel to Jews in 1948
B)There were no reason to take Israel from Jews today

Well you can use A to answer B. Fine. But then I can use C to answer A:

C)There were no reason for Roman armies to take Israel from Jews

So yah I just think it is all based on what way you look at it. UNLESS you use Bible of course.

So what you're saying is that since every group has screwed over others now and then, we can ignore the false claims about the history of that particlar situation? Or we can ignore that Israel is currently screwing people over?


The Israelis are still doing it today. Heck, when the Bosnians and their neighbours were all killing each other, the UN got involved and stopped it. Yet for some reason the only thing anyone does when the same crap happens in Israel is give them more money and weapons.


Good for you, but that's not what I suggested at all. You proposed your own argument and then agreed with yourself. Good for you.


I suggest we abandon the concepts of nations, tribes, religions, and other such differences entirely. For ever.


Sure I can. Go back to when before the establishment of the modern state of Israel, perhaps the 1930s or so.


Because innocent people are being killed by a corrupt and brutal state. You don't need to be religious to be against such atrocities.


Unsupported assumptions.


Who, apart from you, said anything about taking Israel from Jews today?


The Romans didn't take Israel from the Jews. The Romans took that region from everyone who lived there. The Jews were merely one of the many groups around at the time.


Or unless you base your opinion on the basic human rights, and dislike what Israel is doing.

Palestinian mom killed, daughter hurt in IDF arrest raid

A Palestinian woman from a village near Tul Karm was killed and her daughter was wounded by Israel Defense Forces fire yesterday during an arrest raid in the West Bank.

Source.

Israeli missiles kill militants and boy in car

At least six people were killed, including a five-year-old boy, when an Israeli missile hit a car full of Palestinians in the southern Gaza town of Rafah.

Source

IDF Kills Two Children Protesting Separation Wall

Oudai A'asi, 14, and his 15-year-old cousin Kamal A'asi, both from the West Bank village of Beit Lakia, were shot dead while throwing stones together with dozens of other protestors at a separation fence work site next to a village north of Highway 443.

Source

The IDF kills three Palestinian children

Today, three Palestinian children—Ashraf Moussa, Khalid Ranam, and Ahmed al-Jazar—were killed by IDF fire in Rafah. According to eyewitnesses, the three children from the Rafah refugee camp were playing football on the outskirts of the camp. The children are the first three victims to die in Gaza in a month.

The spokesman for the IDF claimed that the three casualties were part of a group of five individuals who went into a restricted zone and crawled towards a military site. At some point the three children jumped up and started running towards the military site despite warning shots. When they were just a few meters away from the site, the soldiers began shooting after they carried out the procedures used to stop a suspect. Afterwards, Palestinians came and removed the bodies. The IDF spokesman claimed that the three children were part of an attempt to smuggle explosive material.

Source

Palestinian children killed by Israel

The Israeli occupation army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 545 Palestinian children and minors since the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.

Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.

Source

School Children Murdered by Israeli Military at Anti-Wall Protest

Two cousins, 14 and 15 years old, were shot dead today by Israeli soldiers who opened fire on a demonstration against the Apartheid Wall in the village of Beit Liqya.

After school ended for the day students went out to protest against the illegal Wall which is right now cutting through their homes and lands threatening the livelihood and freedom of movement of the entire region. Israeli soldiers, positioned on a hill above the demonstration, met the student's confrontation with live fire. According to eye witnesses, the two boys were shot by the same soldier from a distance of 5 to 10 meters.

Jamal Jaber Ibrahim Assi, 15, received a bullet in the heart and died at the scene. Odai Mufid Mahmoud Assi, 14, was shot in the left side of his stomach. The two boys, who were cousins, were rushed by ambulance to the village of Biddu while doctors tried in vain to save Obai. He died enroute to the hospital. Their bodies are currently in the Ramallah Government Hospital.

Source

IDF: Killing children is no longer a big deal

More than 30 Palestinian children were killed in the first two weeks of Operation Days of Penitence in the Gaza Strip. It's no wonder that many people term such wholesale killing of children "terror." Whereas in the overall count of all the victims of the intifada the ratio is three Palestinians killed for every Israeli killed, when it comes to children the ratio is 5:1. According to B'Tselem, the human rights organization, even before the current operation in Gaza, 557 Palestinian minors (below the age of 18) were killed, compared to 110 Israeli minors.

Source

IDF kills 3 boys in Gaza

IDF soldiers shot and killed three Palestinian youngsters Saturday in the Gaza Strip town of Rafah, near the Egyptian border.

The Palestinians were shot after approaching the border area, the army said. However, eyewitnesses said the boys were playing soccer at the time of the shooting.

Following the incident, Palestinians fired more than 30 mortar shells at Gaza Strip settlements and IDF posts.

Source

Palestinian Children Killed by Israel

The Israeli occupation army and paramilitary Jewish settlers have killed 545 Palestinian children and minors since the outbreak of the al-Aqsa Intifada in September 2000.

Among these victims, 266 children were 14 or younger while the ages of the remaining 279 ranged from 15 to 18. Moreover, as many as 20,000 Palestinian children were injured, with nearly 1500 sustaining life-long disabilities.

The total number of Palestinians killed by Israel during the current Intifada is around 2700, the vast majority of them civilians.

Source

Israeli attack massacres Palestinian children after Hamas attacks Israeli children

Children between 8 and 12 years of age were treated for shrapnel wounds in a local hospital

The news first appeared as an e-mail alert from sources in the Middle East - Israel had committed yet another massacre of innocent children in response to a mortar attack in Gaza.

An attempt to contact our sources in the area resulted in the telephone lines being unavailable and a general overview on the Internet of the main sites reveals nothing: the Palestine Authority site is down, as are a number of Arab news sites. The mainstream international news agencies do not mention the incident. The footage on Euronews, under the "No Comment" section, which showed screaming Palestinian children being treated for shrapnel wounds, is mysteriously absent from the website and the footage was shown once, and since withdrawn.

Rania Siam was seven years old and was playing near her house in Khan Younis, Gaza, when she was murdered by continued fire from Israeli troops, who claimed they were retaliating against mortar fire some hours previously against the Jewish settlement of Neve Dekalim. Four persons were injured in this attack, including one child.

Source

Israel takes heat for Gaza airstrike

GAZA CITY (CNN) -- The United Nations, the European Union, the United States and Britain criticized Israel on Tuesday for the airstrike that killed the military commander of Hamas and at least 14 others earlier in the day.

Tens of thousands of Palestinian protesters filled Gaza City's streets vowing revenge.

The outcry was triggered by the early Tuesday morning attack by F-16s in the heart of the city that killed Salah Shehade, leader of Izzedine al Qassam, military wing of the militant Islamic group Hamas.

His death was confirmed by Hamas. Among those killed were Shehade's wife and three of his children and several other children.

At funerals Tuesday afternoon crowds estimated by police to be as large as 100,000 people filled the streets, firing weapons and chanting cries that the "blood of the martyrs will not be lost."

Senior Israeli military sources said they were unaware civilians would be in the house.

"Apparently some civilians were killed and we are very sorry about that. We did not expect such results and if we had known ... we might would have aborted the mission," said Maj. Gen. Dan Harel, the Israeli army's chief of operations.

Source

Israeli snipers shoot girl 20 times as she was walking to school

Israeli soldiers shot dead a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in the southern Gaza Strip yesterday.

Five other Palestinians were killed in the Strip in three separate incidents, bringing the Palestinian death toll to at least 77 since the start of Operation Days of Penitence a week ago.

Military sources admitted yesterday that the killing of Iman Alhamas was a mistake. They said the case was being investigated and confirmed the possibility that she had been shot from several posts.

The girl was shot dead on her way to school, accompanied by two classmates. She was wearing her school uniform and carrying her book bag, which military sources said was suspected of containing explosives. Medical sources in Gaza said the girl was hit by 20 bullets.

After Israel Defense Forces troops fired a warning shot, the girl dropped her bag and tried to run away. The troops then shot her dead. She was about 400 meters from the school. The troops did not find any explosives or weapons in her schoolbag.

Source

The Palestinians: Dozens dead, among them 24 children

Around 90 Palestinians have been killed in the Gaza Strip since Wednesday in one of the largest IDF operations in Gaza .

Of those killed in the operation, 80 were shot in northern Gaza and ten in the south, including a 4-year-old child and another 13-year-old girl. Of the dead, 24 of them were children under the age of 16.

More than 12 Palestinians were killed while they were bombing or trying to bomb targets within Gaza . Around half of the 90 people killed were armed combatants. Around 400 Palestinians were wounded, some 40% of them children. Among those killed in the northern part of Gaza were two siblings, a father and his daughter, and two Palestinians who were deaf mutes.

Source

Palestine: the assault on health and other war crimes. Israeli soldiers confirm the shoot-to-kill policy

Last October I published a review in the BMJ on the appalling human rights situation in the Israeli-occupied Palestinian Territories, providing detailed figures on civilian deaths (over 3000, including over 600 children, in only 4 years) which pointed unambiguously to a culture of impunity for Israeli Defence Force (IDF) soldiers. I also pointed to the rapid rise in poverty and destitution as a direct and foreseen consequence of Israeli policies, with documented rises in child malnutrition, the blocking of food aid distribution, denial of access to medical facilities (including for those critically ill), the killing, wounding and harassment of Palestinian health professionals on duty, and the destruction to the coherence of the Palestinian health system as a result of the apartheid Wall - all violations of the Fourth Geneva Convention. I was not recording a personal view: I was quoting documentation from the United Nations; Amnesty International; international aid agencies like Médecins Sans Frontières; Johns Hopkins (USA) and Al Quds (Jerusalem) Universities; the Israeli human rights organisations B’Tselem and Physicians for Human Rights; Health, Development, Information and Policy Institute (Ramallah), and the Palestinian Environmental NGOs Network (though these were not listed after the paper because the BMJ does not include references in this section of the journal).

Source

Israeli general apologizes for civilian deaths

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- Senior Israeli military officials said Tuesday they were unaware civilians would be in the house struck in a pre-dawn raid that killed a Hamas leader and at least 14 others.

"Apparently, some civilians were killed, and we are very sorry about that," said Maj. Gen. Dan Harel, Israeli army's chief of operations. "We did not expect such results and if we had known ... we might would have aborted the mission."

Nine children -- including a 2-month-old baby -- were killed, the hospital sources said. Among the dead were Shehade's wife and three of his children, they said. Fifteen people were critically wounded.

About 150 people were wounded during the attack.

Source

More...