Why do you believe Jesus was the Messiah

Post Reply New Topic

I have moved the above quotes from the 'Is pgd trying to ...." thread

This is the kind of discourse I have been trying to get going, maybe I have been going about it in the wrong manner. I do actually want a serious discussion on the issue, it may well dispel some common misconceptions that I have acquired

So after reading Keets last post I did a little searching around and discovered that there is a fair amount of disagreement over the translation of the original Isaiah text, principly I am referring to the translation of 'virgin' from a word that can also mean 'young woman', just how much this would change the issue I am not sure as we still need to account for a conception out of wedlock, which was supposedly the result of divine intervention.

Back to Keets paragraph, I find it difficult to believe (given my limited understanding of the rules and punishments in force at the time) that Mary would have gotten away with an illegitimate conception, without some sort of retribution being meted out, unless an explanation acceptable to the authorities was given.

Then of course there is the belief amongst many biblical scholars that Mathew and Luke embellished the nature of Jesus conception and place of birth to make him fit the prophecies of Isaiah.

NB. Keet if you are unhappy with my moving your post I will happily delete it.

There is nothing in the bible that says the Messiah has to arrive twice to get his work done.

Jesus was a failure, hence he was not the Messiah. The kingdom of David was not restored to the Jews.

ruveyn

It's been a while since I read it but I'll go for the bait: Revelations?

Some people think a "virgin birth" is/was necessary because anyone having a human father is already guilty of sin even at birth, but as far as I know, there is nothing in Scripture to indicate anyone actually is already guilty of anything at birth.



The name of that book is singular: "The Revelation of The Messiah", and he need not be known twice.



Not sure I understand or agree, but such is of a voice we should at least hear.

I'm not sure I believe that but I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.

It begins with hope or in my case the lack of any. I basically agree with Sand's assessment of the human race however I can not see any hope of evolution improving it. If our intention was to destroy all life on Earth and make this planet uninhabitable, we are going about it the right way.

What I see in the teachings of Jesus is a plan that could work. The plan focuses inward, on making the world a better place by making yourself a better person: take the log out of your own eye before trying to take the splinter out of your brothers. If Jesus was anointed by God to rescue man from “human nature” than maybe life will continue. I would like it to be true. Would you prefer it was false?

Why do you believe Jesus was the Messiah

Regarding the question: Why do you believe Jesus was the Messiah?

My experience was that I was told in Sunday school class/religion class that Jesus was the Messiah (no questions allowed: convert or die so to speak) and the minister doing part of the teaching went so far as to say something pretty close to: the reason Judaism does not believe Jesus is the Messiah is because all Jews are stupid and cannot interpret the scripture correctly.*

So the Jesus was the Messiah education (no questions allowed - convert or die - so to speak) was pretty close to the approach used by the Nazis during WWII to anyone who might doubt that the Furher - Adolf Hitler - was not the righteous leader of Germany as well as of the world. Either believe in Germany or be picked up by the German police in the middle of the night never to be seen again (no questions allowed - convert or die).

When I look at the scriptures myself (I am not a scholar of the Bible), I tend to feel some of the scriptures suggest that Jesus is the Messiah while other scriptures suggest Jesus is not the Messiah do to the lack a perfect match between what the scriptures say (too foggy, too vague, too imprecise) and how Jesus is described in the New Testament (my view).

So, is Jesus the Messiah of Judiasm?

Well, he may be or he may not be.

I cannot tell myself from the scriptures I've read.

As I said, my experience about scripture intrepretation was a forced scripture interpretation by (extremist) religious ministers who had zero tolerance for anyone who did not accept Jesus as the Messiah (blind faith) as they had (blindly) done (my view).

That's my view today.

Footnote (...this footnote is intended to be humorous, not what I wrote above...)

My view today is subject to change with or without notice.

Also, my religious view may be purchased by the highest bidder who meets a certain monetary figure which I have set as the minimum amount needed for me to subscribe to a certain non-profit religion/religious belief.

I accept cash only for such a transaction.

Please send to my P.O. Box in South America.

Sorry, no refunds.

(...just kidding a little...)

End of footnote.

-------

More...

To dream the impossible dream... (song)

- Don Quixote

...

Nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition...

- Monty Python

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Spanis ... nty_Python)

---

* This is pretty silly since Jesus Christ is a Jew and the Jewish people are well-known for their many contributions to world culture (in both the arts and the sciences) including being awarded many Nobel prizes over the years.

So without a virgin birth does that not remove one reason to believe that Jesus is the messiah, it brings his life far more into the realm of normalcy.

Like I have said many times before I am intrigued by this belief, and yes I am prepared to have misconceptions dispelled. Does this mean I will find myself questioning my lack of belief? plausible but highly unlikely.



It is not so much a matter of wanting something to be false, more a matter of wanting something to be accurate, logical, reasoned etc. Wanting God to exist so that he can send his son to fix the errors in his creation will not make things better, unless the story is true, then what any of us believe is of no consequence. However it is quite possible that the converse is true I.E. Believing there is a god whose son will fix everything may be dooming us to inaction.

From what you are telling me you believe in Jesus out of a desperate hope that the story is true as you see His intervention as our only chance of survival as a species. Have you read scripture and come to an opinion that Jesus fits the profile of the prophecies and if so have you considered the possible natural explanations for the story of His life?

One of the things making all of this so difficult to discuss is the fact so many people have differing/conflicting/confusing definitions of so many of the terms ... and I am not speaking of you there.

If/when "messiah" means "anointed one", there are many messiahs. So, and as I perceive the inherent (albeit unintentional) tone of your question to be, the ultimate question is actually about a "saviour" ... and Scripture clearly quotes Yahuah as saying there is no saviour but Him ... and if that is actually true, then the sectarian idea of calling some/any man of whatever lineage "Saviour" is, at best, foolishness.



The man we are talking about was as "normal" as any man, yet somewhat exceptional in his obedience to the point of death.

So I am getting the idea from you that you are not a Christian in the strictest sense of the term I.E. you do not believe Jesus to be your Lord and Saviour, sent by god to absolve your sins etc etc?

Nowhere in any of the books of the Prophets does it say that the Moisheach will be born of a virgin. In particular, in Isaiah it says the Moisheach will be born of a young women (in Heb. the word is almah not b'tuala which is Hebrew for virgin).


ruveyn

For the last time, his name was Joshua. His Greek name was Jesus

The function of the Moisheach is to restore the Kingdom of David to the Jewish People, not the remission of sin. If people want to rid themselves of sin they should do t'shuvah and act right. The concept of Original Sin is not Biblical (i.e. based on anything in the TNKH). Since we are not in a state of Original Sin we don't need a God on a Stick to rid ourselves of it.

ruveyn

If that is a conclusion you are drawing, I have no argument against it.



Yes. Man has not been commanded to do anything he is incapable of doing.



Being "not in a state of Original Sin" does not mean we have not sinned since and are not in need of repentance, but neither do we need the so-called "New Testament" to find grace and forgiveness.



I believe Spanish renders the name "Jesus" most accurately: "Hey Zeus!"

However crudely this might be written, "Yah" + "Shua" = "Yah Saves" ... just as recorded/reported in Scripture.