Why did Jesus criticize the manna God gave the Israelites?

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This is a theological question.

Why did Jesus Christ (in the New Testament) criticize the manna which God gave the Israelites in the desert wilderness?

Since Jesus Christ and God are supposed to be the same, why did Jesus Christ criticize the manna which God gave the Israelites in the desert wilderness to survive?

Bible

Old Testament
New Testament

Could you provide the source. Verse and book please.

Maybe Crazy Joshuah wasn't god. Maybe he only thought he was. Jesus did believe his mother was a virgin and she believed her son was God, like any good Jewish mother and son.

ruveyn

Ditto (sorry for the snip, ruveyn, but just wanted to be clear about which part I'm agreeing with you on).

"Joshuah," to use ruveyn's word, was critical of a lot of Old Testament traditions as they were meant to apply to the relationship of Judeans with God, each other, and the rest of the world. That doesn't mean that His teachings and the former understanding of the OT were mutually exclusive. If you want a good explanation, you're going to have to be more specific about what you're talking about. I don't recall such a passage, and my reading of the Bible has been predominantly in the OT over the past year.

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ruveyn - See John 6:30-32 (and more)

New Testament - Gospel of John - KJV

30: They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

31: Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.

32: Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.

(more...)

http://etext.virginia.edu/frames/bibleframe.html

- pgd

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ruveyn (above) wrote:

Maybe Crazy Joshuah wasn't god. Maybe he only thought he was. Jesus did believe his mother was a virgin and she believed her son was God, like any good Jewish mother and son.

...

Now what you write above (about family relationships/motherhood, etc.) is indeed !00% gospel (my view).

- pgd

What he is saying is that Moses did not provide the bread (manah). And what is True Bread from heaven? Is it a brand name like Wonder Bread. Or is Josh saying what comes from the Father more important and necessary than bread that is eaten in the ordinary way?

ruveyn

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ruveyn - What I think Jesus Christ was doing was trying to invent a new, liberal Judaism. Jesus replaced circumcision with his cousin's new version - water baptism in the River Jordan - now Jesus wanted to replace Moses's manna (contained in the Ark of the Covenant) and the Passover of Judaism with a new invention of Jesus called - grapejuice and crackers - at the Last Supper. Jesus also abandoned the idea of saving Jews only and opened his new religion to everyone figuring that the crowds would be much larger if he invented a new, liberal Judaism which accepted everyone - even those outside of the traditional 12 tribes of Israel. That's my guess. Apparently ticket sales at the religious sales gate were good and Jesus was able to sustain a new, liberalized Judaism until things fell apart - Jesus ran through the Temple Mall of Jerusalem waving a handgun...oops a bullwhip...and then his accountant, Judas, apparently felt he was not being paid enough to count beans decided to turn his employer in for a reward of thirty pieces of silver (and a free trip to Cairo...oops, that's not part of the story)/whatever. Jesus was executed by the local politicians, his body disappeared, and the rest is history. - pgd

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Christ_Superstar

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_and ... _Dreamcoat

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opera

That's how I read it (the latter). The appearance of manah may have been the product of a miracle for all we know, but it's purpose was no less for physical nourishment. Jesus was talking about spiritual nourishment being more important than physical.

How about looking at those verses in context? This statement came very soon after the feeding of the 5,000, hence the references to "bread from heaven." Just before, Jesus seemingly vanished because He had not boarded the boat with His disciples. That was the "walking on water" incident. Some of the crowd caught up with Him on the other side of the sea and asked Him when it was He arrived. The response was, beginning in vs. 26:



The question I have is: How could the crowds ask for anything MORE beyond the feeding of the 5,000? Of course, this is a different gathering, but what's REALLY important here is that they were looking for someone to replicate the ongoing miracle of manna from heaven that had sustained the Israelites in the years after the exodus.

Something that unbelievers often do is posit the question of why God or Jesus don't reveal themselves the same way they did in Jesus' time or the OT time. In my personal life and experience, I've nearly always felt that, for whatever reason, I was being protected. I mean, just this past Sunday I was on my way to church when a speeding car ran a red light as I was crossing the highway. I can recall two or three incidents in the last two years when cars slammed into each other right in front of me. I have to ask myself: Why was I the one who was there either two seconds too soon or two second too late and got spared? I and my family were struck by a massive wedge tornado while out on a day trip. With all the wind, rain, falling trees and flying debris, there wasn't so much as a scratch on the car, yet there was massive destruction all around within only a few hundred feet of us. What is so special that I've been kept safe so long? I don't know... Maybe I've just gotten lucky too many times. Maybe my number is coming up sooner than I think. But I find it difficult to believe that miracles DON'T happen having seen the things I've seen. And the thing is I don't even NEED miracles to believe!

For some, miracles and signs just aren't enough. Demanding miracles and signs really doesn't amount to much more than being dazzled by the tricks of illusionists. Jesus did those things He did to make a point, to teach a lesson. You can't manipulate God to do your every bidding. And I suspect that those who asked Jesus to keep providing manna were really seeking some more parlor tricks and ways in which they themselves might have some magical power and draw other people under their influence. It didn't really matter what Jesus did or didn't do. Those who are of a mind to believe will; those who require miracles (and actually get them) will go on failing (more like refusing) to believe anyway, no matter what they see or have been told.

Ruyven... again I find myself guiltily chuckling in agreement over the Jewish mother and son joke... with one corollary, it's all Irish mothers and sons. (I'm an Irish mother by the way, so I can make that joke.)

Got to disagree that Jesus replaced circumcision with baptism... He didn't mention circumcision. Baptism had been around for ages in Judaism, and the wine and bread was part of the Seder meal both before and after Christ, so He didn't invent it. Though one might argue (if you're a deity invoking freak like myself) that He fulfilled it.

My understanding of the question asked in the OP is this. Jesus criticised Manna because it only temporarily gave life, those who ate it died, eventually. He was trying to say that the bread of life should give true life, eternal life. Make of that what you will.

Now I'm going to bow out of this thread before it becomes a free for all Christian bashing Christ denigrating back slapping orgy of "atheists are clever than God, Who, by the way, we don't believe in."

See you guys around.

Interesting. I suppose Lotto winners also believe God had a hand in it.

Well, I can't speak for lotto winners since I've never personally known one. I have no doubt it's possible a lotto winner might believe that. The problem, though, is the Bible advises against all forms of gambling. The ONLY "game" of chance the Bible condones was a form of drawing lots by priests in the OT to determine God's will or intention. Drawing lots in the NT was employed for extremely difficult decisions and resolving disagreements. The Bible clearly indicate that this is only done in extraordinary circumstances, but certainly not with the intention of monetary gain.

Anybody who cannot perceive that all life is a gamble is totally blind to reality. All of the modern world is made with investments in hopes for success which is basically merely gambling. All of Wall Street is built on gambling. To invoke against taking chances and hoping for success is total idiocy.

Heaven's Kitchen topic

God is a lousy chef. Yet, I suppose beggars cannot be choosers.

I'm not saying it's improper to take calculated risks. Even God took a chance by introducing the ability to choose obedience/disobedience within humans and angels. If God is in any way responsible for the existence of sin, His responsibility lies within His inclusion of free will or free thinking in the human animal.

All I'm saying is that God doesn't play games with the universe.

Are you saying quantum mechanics aren't real?

lol

Well, quantum mechanics is beyond the scope of my knowledge. All I know is something about a cat in a box that may or may not be dead and the existence of multiple metaverses, or something like that.

Schroedinger's Cat is metaphor or a parable on quantum states. When an object has not been observed by interaction with another physical system it could be on any one of several states. By observing the object, the quantum wave function is `collapsed so that the object is seen in exactly one of it possible quantum states.

ruveyn