Do we live in a tyranny when...

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05 Oct 2010, 10:52 am

It is impossible for the average person to internalize the law, and might not know the proper way to act in some instances?

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wavefreak58
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05 Oct 2010, 10:59 am

takemitsu wrote:

It is impossible for the average person to internalize the law, and might not know the proper way to act in some instances?

Sort of like working for a major corporation? (substitute rules for laws)

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05 Oct 2010, 11:42 am

wavefreak58 wrote:

takemitsu wrote:

It is impossible for the average person to internalize the law, and might not know the proper way to act in some instances?

Sort of like working for a major corporation? (substitute rules for laws)

I'll give a few scenario's

-A person gets fined for fishing at a lake for taking more fish in a day than was allotted by the park

-A person gets pulled over and receives a ticket for not having a license plate on the front of the vehicle.

-A parent goes to jail for disciplining their child.

-A 13 year old gets arrested for sexting.

-A person videotapes a police officer and get's charged with wiretapping

Assume that in all the scenarios, the people didn't realize they were doing something that would lead to fine/jail.

I'm aware of Ignorantia juris non excusat, but I'm asking for pure opinions, and not from a legal standpoint.

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05 Oct 2010, 11:53 am

Working for a corporation without a trade union is a case of living in a tyranny

wavefreak58
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05 Oct 2010, 11:58 am

takemitsu wrote:

wavefreak58 wrote:

takemitsu wrote:

It is impossible for the average person to internalize the law, and might not know the proper way to act in some instances?

Sort of like working for a major corporation? (substitute rules for laws)

This is just people breaking the rules. I'm not sure what you mean by internalizing the law. Are you suggesting that there are so many laws that we cannot possibly know them all? Regardless, tyranny doesn't seem to apply. For me at least, tyranny involves an uneven application of the law to promote the tyrant's agenda, among other things. Tyranny is arbitrary and capricious, often extra-legal.

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05 Oct 2010, 1:23 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:

takemitsu wrote:

wavefreak58 wrote:

takemitsu wrote:

It is impossible for the average person to internalize the law, and might not know the proper way to act in some instances?

Sort of like working for a major corporation? (substitute rules for laws)

He means when people break laws in complete ignorance OF those laws, because there are so many laws its quite possible to not realise something is against a given law. Certainly here our police force delight in incarcerating people as and when they choose, then locating some legislation to "arrest" them for afterwards, and we have a history of introducing huge legal "bills" stuffed to the gills with as many laws as possible, hiding under a veneer of bog obvious laws everybody actually wants. Something akin to passing a bill labelled the "Law that makes rape definitely illegal" in which is the sub-clause "It will be illegal to disagree with a police officer." Thus, tyranny gets in by the back door.

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05 Oct 2010, 1:53 pm

Macbeth wrote:

wavefreak58 wrote:

What you are describing is not related to the number of laws but rather arbitrary application and creation of laws. The tyranny is not in the laws themselves meted out by the hands of the courts and law enforcement agencies.

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05 Oct 2010, 2:54 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:

Macbeth wrote:

wavefreak58 wrote:

Our previous government introduced something like 500 new laws JUST about when government officials can legally enter your home (including to check your plants, or that your fridge has the correct energy rating on it) never mind the 3000 or more other laws they introduced. Some of these regulate whether a clown can be heralded by trumpets. The police will often choose to arrest and prosecute using such ridiculous legislation, something that may never have entered the "villain's" head. The use of petty legislation to regulate as many aspects of daily life as possible is tyranny, and the more laws they introduced, the more they could dominate our lives.

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05 Oct 2010, 3:06 pm

According to this guy, the average US citizen unknowingly commits three felonies a day...

http://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Da ... 1594032556

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05 Oct 2010, 10:24 pm

takemitsu wrote:

A person gets fined for fishing at a lake for taking more fish in a day than was allotted by the park

When someone applies for a fishing or hunting license, they are expected to learn and abide by the rules; most lakes I've seen in Missouri that permit fishing have signs posted about legal catches too.

takemitsu wrote:

A person gets pulled over and receives a ticket for not having a license plate on the front of the vehicle.

Again, people are expected to learn the rules of the road when they apply for a driver's license and a license for their automobile.

takemitsu wrote:

A parent goes to jail for disciplining their child.

Spanking is borderline child abuse although I don't know if sending parents to jail for it is the most fitting legal response (I'd prefer the parents be educated on better discipline styles).

takemitsu wrote:

A 13 year old gets arrested for sexting.

Presumably the laws the 13 year old was arrested under were for the protection of minors against exploitation of their sexuality by adults. The law should be rewritten to address the loophole, and a sensible judge would know to dismiss the case.

takemitsu wrote:

A person videotapes a police officer and get's charged with wiretapping

The judge threw this wiretapping charge out; the police and prosecution were wrong to bring wiretapping charges against the concerned individual.

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05 Oct 2010, 11:39 pm

takemitsu wrote:

When my grandfather was a young man:
There were no driver's licenses.
There were no fishing licenses.
There were no hunting licenses.
There were no gun licenses or restrictions.
There were no speed limits on the road.
There were no dog licenses.

You didn't need a "building permit" to put up a barn on your farm.
You didn't need a "business permit" to start a business.

Before 1933 or so there wasn't any income tax.

The human race got by for thousands of years without all these laws.

Now in Australia you can get arrested for carrying a pocket knife or a slingshot,

As a kid I had a lot of fun with fireworks but now they are banned.

Note to the government:
GET OUT OF OUR FACE. WE DON'T NEED YOU AND WE DON'T WANT YOU.

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06 Oct 2010, 2:31 am

Wombat wrote:

Before 1933 or so there wasn't any income tax.

The human race got by for thousands of years without all these laws.

.

Income tax was made legal in the U.S. when the 16th amendment was passed in 1913. Prior to FDR very few people paid income tax (only the very rich) and they paid about three percent. That was sufficient for running the government prior to FDR.

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06 Oct 2010, 8:08 am

takemitsu wrote:

It is impossible for the average person to internalize the law, and might not know the proper way to act in some instances?

Yes.

I went to law school. The number of laws that apply to the individual is dizzying. Even a person with a photographic memory would have difficulty being able to claim knowledge of every law and perfect obedience.

This is tyranny. The law should always extend to what a person of common intelligence can grasp and obey. The idea of "ignorance of the law is no excuse" is bull because I know of no lawyer or judge that has such perfect knowledge or obedience.

The only "grace" is that most all law enforcement personnel have no knowledge of all the law as well. Hence, much of it is never enforced, but the sad truth is that if the state wanted to persecute you, all they'd need is to follow your daily activities very closely and scrutinize every choice you make. Sooner or later, you would break a law allowing them to bring the full weight of the criminal justice system crashing down upon you.

Much of this complexity was created to ensure the continuity of power and work for those who are in the legal profession.

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06 Oct 2010, 11:06 am

I was surprised while trying to do a search on how many federal statues, or US codes, all citizens must oblige to,nothing really came up. I even put up the question on yahoo! answers, but received one response: "No." It's gotten 5 thumbs up and 0 down, so I'm assuming there's at least hundred's of thousands. This is why I try to have the least amount of contact with the police as I can, and when I talk to them, I'm very terse with them.

It doesn't really remedy the situation, but least there's jury nullification.

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06 Oct 2010, 11:10 am

"No comment": The only words you should ever say to the police.

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06 Oct 2010, 9:35 pm

Wombat wrote:

Humanity got along fine for millennia without penicillin, the light bulb, the Internet, and myriad other technologies; people used to literally own other people (they still do in a few places). Your argument isn't logically sound unless you're okay with foregoing any change. Driving exams and licensing are crucial, and even still, have you actually seen how some people drive? Most Americans no longer live in homesteads miles away from anyone else; the world has changed.

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