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TheKing
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14 Dec 2010, 6:47 pm

these are really good i agree completely with them "A God who could make good children as easily as bad, yet preferred to make bad ones; who could made every one of them happy, yet never made a single happy one; who made them prize their bitter life, yet stingily cut it short; who gave his angels eternal happiness unearned, yet required his other children to earn it; who gave his angels painless lives, yet cursed his other children with biting miseries and maladies of mind and body; who mouths justice, and invented hell-- mouths mercy, and invented hell-- mouths Golden Rules and forgiveness multiplied by seventy times seven, and invented hell; who mouths morals to other people, and has none himself; who frowns upon crimes, yet commits them all; who created man without invitation, then tries to shuffle the responsibility for man's acts upon man, instead of honourably placing it on himself; and finally, with altogether divine obtusenes, invites his poor abused slave to worship him!" -- Mark Twain notice its all 1 sentence. if you can't believe a guy who can turn a whole paragraph into 1 sentence then wh can you believe? "None of us can be as great as God, but any of us can be as good" -- Mark Twain does anyone agree with these statements? i know i do


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skafather84
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14 Dec 2010, 7:26 pm

Mark Twain wrote:
If I cannot smoke my pipe in heaven, I shall not go.


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TheKing
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14 Dec 2010, 7:29 pm

hahaha thats what i love about Mark Twain being gifted with the ability to make people laugh and think at the same time.


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Nambo
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14 Dec 2010, 9:24 pm

From what Ive read about God, he doesnt make "good and bad" children, he made Adam and Eve good, and put them in a paradise, the Devil came along and persuaded Adam that he could be better off if he disobeyed and rejected God, so he did.
Gods let us do what we wanted to do, now we must live with the result, why is that Gods fault?

However, God in his Love, has given us a means to return to him, to a situation where all children will be born good and happy, I presume by your post however, that you would rather reject such an offer, but still blame God for the results of your own actions?



Sand
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14 Dec 2010, 9:32 pm

Nambo wrote:
From what Ive read about God, he doesnt make "good and bad" children, he made Adam and Eve good, and put them in a paradise, the Devil came along and persuaded Adam that he could be better off if he disobeyed and rejected God, so he did.
Gods let us do what we wanted to do, now we must live with the result, why is that Gods fault?

However, God in his Love, has given us a means to return to him, to a situation where all children will be born good and happy, I presume by your post however, that you would rather reject such an offer, but still blame God for the results of your own actions?


And who made the Devil with all the Devil's powers ? And since God is aware of and can foresee the ends of his creation who is basically responsible for the bad things that happen. God obviously knew beforehand what would happen and he let it happen and so the responsibility is his.



Nambo
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14 Dec 2010, 9:49 pm

Sand wrote:
Nambo wrote:
From what Ive read about God, he doesnt make "good and bad" children, he made Adam and Eve good, and put them in a paradise, the Devil came along and persuaded Adam that he could be better off if he disobeyed and rejected God, so he did.
Gods let us do what we wanted to do, now we must live with the result, why is that Gods fault?

However, God in his Love, has given us a means to return to him, to a situation where all children will be born good and happy, I presume by your post however, that you would rather reject such an offer, but still blame God for the results of your own actions?


And who made the Devil with all the Devil's powers ? And since God is aware of and can foresee the ends of his creation who is basically responsible for the bad things that happen. God obviously knew beforehand what would happen and he let it happen and so the responsibility is his.


Yes God made the devil, and he made man, and he gave them free will to obey him or not.
So are you saying God should force us to obey him, or maybe strike you down dead if you dare do what you want to do?

This Biblical account tells what happened regarding the Devil, how he was created perfect and beautifull and annointed as King of the Earth but the power went to his head and he wanted to be a god himself:-

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.



TheKing
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14 Dec 2010, 9:50 pm

exactly what sand said God created his Angels and being omniscient knew that the Devil would betray him(most sources claim Lucifer was an Angel at first) and also being omniscient knew that the Devil would tempt Eve and being omniscient knew that Eve would do as Satan asked at first which shows he could have stopped it meaning he is to blame because he could have intervened on something he knew would happen and because of his omniscience we are slaves because we have no free will if he can see our futures


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Sand
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14 Dec 2010, 9:59 pm

Nambo wrote:
Sand wrote:
Nambo wrote:
From what Ive read about God, he doesnt make "good and bad" children, he made Adam and Eve good, and put them in a paradise, the Devil came along and persuaded Adam that he could be better off if he disobeyed and rejected God, so he did.
Gods let us do what we wanted to do, now we must live with the result, why is that Gods fault?

However, God in his Love, has given us a means to return to him, to a situation where all children will be born good and happy, I presume by your post however, that you would rather reject such an offer, but still blame God for the results of your own actions?


And who made the Devil with all the Devil's powers ? And since God is aware of and can foresee the ends of his creation who is basically responsible for the bad things that happen. God obviously knew beforehand what would happen and he let it happen and so the responsibility is his.


Yes God made the devil, and he made man, and he gave them free will to obey him or not.
So are you saying God should force us to obey him, or maybe strike you down dead if you dare do what you want to do?

This Biblical account tells what happened regarding the Devil, how he was created perfect and beautifull and annointed as King of the Earth but the power went to his head and he wanted to be a god himself:-

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.[b]
Your settings and mountings[c] were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.


You throw the word "perfect" around as if you knew what it meant. It means without fault. It means it cannot make mistakes or bad decisions. It means God did not create either the Devil or mankind without fault. It means God is responsible.



Banned_Magnus
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14 Dec 2010, 10:22 pm

I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

Einstein studied physics becuase he wanted to understand the mind of God.



Sand
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14 Dec 2010, 10:48 pm

Banned_Magnus wrote:
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings. (Albert Einstein)

Einstein studied physics becuase he wanted to understand the mind of God.


Einstein's proclamations on theology gain no authority from his accomplishments in physics. The two don't relate.



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15 Dec 2010, 1:55 pm

He said that the reason why he was obsessed with math and physics is because he wanted to understand the mind of God. How can you say that it is not related when he claimed that the whole inspiration for his understanding of relativity and quantum physics came from his imagination and his search for God.



skafather84
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15 Dec 2010, 1:58 pm

Banned_Magnus wrote:
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists



The illusion of order does not indicate the existence of a deity.


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ruveyn
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15 Dec 2010, 1:58 pm

Banned_Magnus wrote:
He said that the reason why he was obsessed with math and physics is because he wanted to understand the mind of God. How can you say that it is not related when he claimed that the whole inspiration for his understanding of relativity and quantum physics came from his imagination and his search for God.


Isaac Newton was likewise inspired. He believed that time and space were the sensorium of God and he (Newton) wanted to comprehend it better. The Heavens proclaim Thy handiwork, O Lord.

ruveyn



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15 Dec 2010, 2:03 pm

Newton understood alchemy better than he understood physics. He was so close...



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15 Dec 2010, 2:05 pm

skafather84 wrote:
Banned_Magnus wrote:
I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists



The illusion of order does not indicate the existence of a deity.


You have the right to believe whatever you want. But, if someone claims to believe differently, we have no right to alter their beliefs just to make our beliefs more consistent with their own.



skafather84
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15 Dec 2010, 2:20 pm

Nambo wrote:
From what Ive read about God, he doesnt make "good and bad" children, he made Adam and Eve good, and put them in a paradise, the Devil came along and persuaded Adam that he could be better off if he disobeyed and rejected God, so he did.
Gods let us do what we wanted to do, now we must live with the result, why is that Gods fault?

However, God in his Love, has given us a means to return to him, to a situation where all children will be born good and happy, I presume by your post however, that you would rather reject such an offer, but still blame God for the results of your own actions?


He made the devil and if he is infinitely knowing then he knew what the devil would turn out to be.


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